Bowers&Wilkins new flagship the P9!
Apr 16, 2017 at 12:28 PM Post #1,186 of 2,022
@PolkManiac
, I really agree with you, and I do think that it is simply a matter of acclimating to the P9, assuming you can. I am sure there are going to be people who just don't care for what it does. In the ideal world the P9 would have about a 10% reduction in bass energy. I still remain surprised that despite the bombastic nature of the P9 it doesn't feel that it is congested. Certainly nobody will accuse it of being the last word in clarity, but that's not the P9s' thing anyway so it doesn't need to be that. I also have the Mojo and feel that it is a really nice match with the P9.

I think you made a good call, give it a few solid days of head time and see how it shakes out. No harm in trying and if it doesn't do it for you at least you know you gave it a shot. As I said, I think B&W really needs to do a 50mm driver model with larger cups and perhaps reduce the bass a little closer to reference, but not entirely back away from that powerful and unapologetic rich bass. I now am very interested in hearing some good B&W home speakers when that is a possibility for me again. Cheers and really look forward to your impressions.


I'd say a 20% reduction in mid bass and leave the sub bass as is. And then how about B&W release the lightning cable sometime before 2019. And the bigger driver and cups is a brilliant idea. A little larger soundstage would definitely benefit them.
 
Apr 16, 2017 at 12:39 PM Post #1,187 of 2,022
Sonic Defender, as probably the most active contributor to this forum, the term "reference" requires further explanation. Elaborate if you may......Thank you!

Well, reference of course is a contentious term I acknowledge that. There is likely no universal accepted definition of what reference really means, but as I suspect you know it typically means when the amplitude of say the bass is considered to not unbalance the signal while still possessing impact and extension. Now even assuming we could find a definition people agreed on for what constitutes reference, there is no guarantee that it will be pleasing to the majority. In fact, I personally feel that we are smack in the middle of a period where a new reference point for low frequencies is being determined. I think the evidence is clear that many people, perhaps even the majority of people are slowly and surely gravitating away from a leaner, linear approach to bass instead favouring a bigger, bolder approach. I know I fit into that category, but within reason.
 
For me, as long as the bass doesn't drone or become uncontrolled and messy I can tolerate quite a bit of bass. I like detail in bass, but I also like scale and power so I will sacrifice a little detail for extra impact. Ideally I wouldn't have to, but that seems unlikely unless I can shell out insane money for a headphone. When I said a 10% bass reduction that was of course not meant to be taken completely literally, just as a way of trying to put a quantifiable number for a concept. Somewhere in between the Z1R and P9 would be very nice for me. I find after listening to the P9 and then using the Z1R, believe it or not the Z1R does not sound like a bassy headphone. Do I like what the P9 does? Yes, very much, but that isn't to say for my preferences there isn't some room to tinker, same goes with the Z1R, neither is perfect, but both are very, very good.
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 4:21 AM Post #1,188 of 2,022
I am curious what we will see when B&W releases the lightning cable for the P9. The cable will, obviously, have a DAC inside. This will in turn lead to opportunities for B&W to "tweak" the sound - if they are paying any attention to online comments and critiques that users are making.
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 8:48 AM Post #1,189 of 2,022
I'm not an iPhone user. Never have been, probably never will be. It seems a shame to me that B&W aren't doing the option of a USB micro C cable as well as lightning.

Noise cancellation would be great too, if not on the free lightning with dac and amp, then as an option.

Is it likely that the lightning cable would have an EQ? That would be useful.

What I'd really like to see is the option of a serious cable upgrade of the calabre of Nordost. Unfortunately, B&W went for a bespoke single connection so it seems unlikely. Also, how likely is it that the P9 would sell in sufficient numbers to warrant such a partnership?

I'm really enjoying the P9's one week in with the Hugo connected to Tidal on the laptop and rediscovering old tracks and childhood favorites is a real joy. They partner well and for me there is a great sense of musicality. I don't know about describing it as reference as I've no prior experience of audiophile grade head-fi so I can make no comparison there.

What I can do is compare it to my experience of Hi-Fi and compare well it does. Very well. I am wondering how much I would have to spend on separates to match the sound quality.

Like Sonic, whenever I've experienced the mid-bass bump, I turn the volume down. The P9's are so easy to drive, the Hugo able to go so loud, the clarity so strong and free from any distortion that it is possible to listen far louder than you should. I like to do this now and then on the Hi-Fi too. It seems that the P9's mid bass bump becomes more apparent (on certain tracks of course) at higher volumes. I wonder if this characteristic is not only to do with the voicing (sonic signature as some call it) but also whether it is a function of using comparatively small diameter but long throw drivers. How many others use this arrangement? Now there are certainly advantages with long throw bass drivers on loudspeakers but their energy is dispersed across a room before reaching your ears. I'm no expert but from an engineering and bio-mechanics perspective when I experience that mid-bass bump at higher volumes I'm feeling that pressure on my ear drum is like the effect changing altitude typically has causing your ears to pop. As soon as that happens I whack the volume down.

Fortunately, this is a set up that can be enjoyed at relatively quiet volume levels too (where the mid bass bump simply does not exist). It's actually something that is difficult to do well. That's the difference the amp inside the Hugo (as compared to using the LG G5 plus module) and the easy to drive P9's are making.

I had an experience recently where I heard a What Hi-Fi 2016 award winner through my LG G5. They were these:

https://www.whathifi.com/akg/y50/review

They were less than a week old, played on my LG G5 with Tidal Hi-Fi and within seconds my ears were hurting. The volumn wasn't particularly high. I swopped for my then 'reference' B&O's
(https://www.whathifi.com/bo/play-h3/review) just to make sure there wasn't any problems with my phone and ears - there wasn't - then told my friend, "I don't care what What Hi-Fi say but these hurt my ears". I then demonstrated to him the two HP's and he agreed. I said, "Well, perhaps they still need running in".

The thing is I have some Beyerdynamic's (1994 award winners too no less and probably at a similar price point) and in comparison to these AKG's sound great!

I'm hoping that the P9's (and Hugo) will get even better as the day's and weeks go by.

Recommendation of the day:
Aha's "Take on Me", available at master quality on Tidal. It sounds so good it will make you laugh. #nostalgiaenhanced&upgraded.

Edited for typos and readability.
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 12:30 PM Post #1,190 of 2,022
I'm not an iPhone user. Never have been, probably never will be. It seems a shame to me that B&W aren't doing the option of a USB micro C cable as well as lightning.

Noise cancellation would be great too, if not on the free lightning with dac and amp, then as an option.

I'm not an owner of this headphone, but noise cancellation would require a separate noise canceling version, as noise canceling headphones need a microphone on the earcups to modulate the signal to cancel incoming waves. Essentially, it would require a re-release, and the hardware required is about 90% of the hardware needed for bluetooth. Both require an internal DAC/amp
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 1:23 PM Post #1,191 of 2,022
... noise canceling headphones need a microphone on the earcups to modulate the signal to cancel incoming waves. Essentially, it would require a re-release, and the hardware required is about 90% of the hardware needed for bluetooth. Both require an internal DAC/amp


Didn't realise the mic had to be on the earcups. I once had a pair of the Sennheiser noise cancelling hp 10 years ago. I just thought the mic was on the amp/battery pack. Maybe it was but then it was a decade ago (and I did have an iPod Nano!). To do it properly, I suspect the best method is, as you say, on the earcups.
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 2:08 PM Post #1,192 of 2,022
I'm not surprised at all that B&W decided to do the lightning cable first.  They probably more iPhone customers than Android, and it's easier to do that cable because those standards are already set.  It's probably the same reason other companies like Audeze started with the Lightning cable first as well.  I expect all those companies to come out with USB version as well but they're going to take longer to come to market.  Say what you want about iOS and the limitations it has, but one of them is not currently nor likely will ever be the accessories that are available for those devices.  Half the Android phones out there can't even do unaltered audio over USB natively and then you've got all the phones having different standards and even different USB ports.  To put this into perspective Audeze is the leader here and has been working on the Cipher cable for a couple years and is really only just now talking about build building a USB variant, and we have no idea how far off that is.
 
I'm not saying it's impossible to make cables for those devices but it's nowhere near as straightforward as building for iOS.  I'm an iPhone user and I have to live with the limitations of that ecosystem, if you're an Android user you've got to do likewise and accept the fact that for the majority of accessories you're gonna be second in line and have fewer options.
 
I don't blame B&W one bit for doing the prudent thing and starting with the cable that they're almost certainly sure to sell more of.
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 2:21 PM Post #1,193 of 2,022
.
 
I don't blame B&W one bit for doing the prudent thing and starting with the cable that they're almost certainly sure to sell more of.

Edit: reread your post and see we were saying the same thing.
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 8:20 PM Post #1,194 of 2,022
  Well, reference of course is a contentious term I acknowledge that. There is likely no universal accepted definition of what reference really means, but as I suspect you know it typically means when the amplitude of say the bass is considered to not unbalance the signal while still possessing impact and extension. Now even assuming we could find a definition people agreed on for what constitutes reference, there is no guarantee that it will be pleasing to the majority. In fact, I personally feel that we are smack in the middle of a period where a new reference point for low frequencies is being determined. I think the evidence is clear that many people, perhaps even the majority of people are slowly and surely gravitating away from a leaner, linear approach to bass instead favouring a bigger, bolder approach. I know I fit into that category, but within reason.
 
For me, as long as the bass doesn't drone or become uncontrolled and messy I can tolerate quite a bit of bass. I like detail in bass, but I also like scale and power so I will sacrifice a little detail for extra impact. Ideally I wouldn't have to, but that seems unlikely unless I can shell out insane money for a headphone. When I said a 10% bass reduction that was of course not meant to be taken completely literally, just as a way of trying to put a quantifiable number for a concept. Somewhere in between the Z1R and P9 would be very nice for me. I find after listening to the P9 and then using the Z1R, believe it or not the Z1R does not sound like a bassy headphone. Do I like what the P9 does? Yes, very much, but that isn't to say for my preferences there isn't some room to tinker, same goes with the Z1R, neither is perfect, but both are very, very good.

 
Very well put.
 
For me, 'reference' can have two meanings; one is as something that you are comparing a headphone to, like, say, a loudspeaker...or another headphone ( I don't like trying to define a headphones sound by comparing to another headphone, but it's often the only "understood" form of reference on a headphone forum). IMO the true reference is the sounds of live voices and instruments as you would hear them in real life.
 
"Reference" can also refer to your "go-to" headphone, the one that represents what you feel is the "right" sound or most natural ( in relation to the "real thing").
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 8:43 PM Post #1,195 of 2,022
Very well put.

For me, 'reference' can have two meanings; one is as something that you are comparing a headphone to, like, say, a loudspeaker...or another headphone ( I don't like trying to define a headphones sound by comparing to another headphone, but it's often the only "understood" form of reference on a headphone forum). IMO the true reference is the sounds of live voices and instruments as you would hear them in real life.

"Reference" can also refer to your "go-to" headphone, the one that represents what you feel is the "right" sound or most natural ( in relation to the "real thing").
well articulated as you assert my position regarding"reference" headphones succinctly.
 
Apr 21, 2017 at 7:17 PM Post #1,197 of 2,022
Well I've spent a few days with the P9 now and sadly they're just not for me. I say sadly because I really will miss the high end on these cans as it is a material improvement over the P7. The bass is great too and I don't even mind the mid bass jump so much, it's really the suck out in the mids that gets me. I know this is needed to get the v shaped fun sound but it's a bit too much for me, I can't get over the associated Hall effect it gives to the sound.
 
Apr 21, 2017 at 10:19 PM Post #1,198 of 2,022

Unfortunately the P9 is not perfect.  I can imagine at development stage, the engineers at Bowers & Wilkins are split in deciding between "reference or fun sound signature", "semi-open or close".   As it sounded like one confused headphone.   If you factor in design, packaging and 7/10 sound at price of US$850, I will keep it.   The only reason I did not used it much is it was meant to be for portable use during those weekend cafe trips, but the semi-open P9 just leak and amplify too much noise in the cafe.   It will be good enough for me if it is closed.  Just my opinion.   
 
Apr 21, 2017 at 10:53 PM Post #1,199 of 2,022
Unfortunately the P9 is not perfect.  I can imagine at development stage, the engineers at Bowers & Wilkins are split in deciding between "reference or fun sound signature", "semi-open or close".   As it sounded like one confused headphone.   If you factor in design, packaging and 7/10 sound at price of US$850, I will keep it.   The only reason I did not used it much is it was meant to be for portable use during those weekend cafe trips, but the semi-open P9 just leak and amplify too much noise in the cafe.   It will be good enough for me if it is closed.  Just my opinion.   
no pair of headphones is perfect, maybe near perfect(staxes) but still not perfect...
I'll give the p9s a 95% actually and believe me i have auditioned and/or owned most of the so called TOTL headphones in the last 35+ yrs.
My objective position on the foregoing.
Just procure what best suits your taste and preference....Enjoy
 
Apr 22, 2017 at 10:12 AM Post #1,200 of 2,022
I'll give the p9s a 95% actually and believe me i have auditioned and/or owned most of the so called TOTL headphones in the last 35+ yrs.
My objective position on the foregoing.

 
You're trolling, right? You're basically implying anybody who disagrees with you is wrong. It's your subjective opinion, not objective.
 

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