[whophant]

Hi all, this is my first proper post on Head-Fi, and I already feel like I may be missing something, because it seems that there should be a whole lot more discussion on this topic.

Specifically, are there Bluetooth wireless headphones that sound as good in passive mode - that is, with no power and no digital processing, and using a separate amp (be it in a PC or phone or an outboard unit) - as they do in active mode, when they're all DSP'd and whatnot?

I recently got a pair of Sennheiser Momentum 3 headphones used, which clearly have gotten very little use and appear as new. I was very excited, but when I unfolded them, turned them back off, plugged them into my iFi Zen DAC and cranked them up they sounded like - what is it the kids today say? - ass.

Horrible intermodulation distortion, harsh and piercing mids and upper mids, an overall aggressive and shouty character at higher volumes, and all of this to a lesser extent even at lower listening levels.

Then I tried them in wireless mode, and also from my PC's USB port and they are simply breathtaking - some of the finest sounding headphones I've ever heard, and definitely worthy of all the hype.

Back to passive mode, I tried lots of different things - another amp, equalization both subtle and radical, a different cable (from my Senn M1s) - and absolutely nothing helped un-ass them.

Ironically, I was strongly considering Edifier Stax S3 Spirit headphones instead, until I read that they can't be used in pure passive mode, but must be turned on and DSP'd all the time, whether wired or wireless. This was, LOL, a deal-breaker for me...

I guess I have this notion that headphones that need power on will have a limited life, as the (assumedly non-replaceable) battery will inevitably fail - but I guess I can always use these Momentum 3 in USB mode, and they should last fairly indefinitely...

So back to the question in my mind and heart - are there wireless on- or over-ear headphones which sound as good in passive, un-powered mode as they do in active mode? (and most preferably without any equalization or other diddling, but I guess that's another story)

And, speaking of other stories, I would appreciate any instructions or suggestions on how to make Momentum 3 headphones sound better in passive wired mode - I'm definitely not an EQ artist, and all of my own effort got me absolutely nowhere excruciatingly slowly.

I hope this is one of those long-lived posts with dozens of pages, but I would love to get at least one or two people's input.

Thanks!

 

[idsyphe]

Maybe the K371-BT or K361-BT, I have the K371 variant, and many people say they lack what makes the K371 special, but I have been happy with mine, build quality isn't great, but I can't complain about the sound personally, maybe the only problem I have is the supplied cable has a bit of distracting microphonics, which is not something I had an issue with in my K361 non-wireless, however they may have fixed this in recent revisions, and the K371BT has a 4pin mini-xlr so may not be as easy to get a replacement as other similarly connected headphones

 

[pecotunkA]

I recently got a pair of Sennheiser Momentum 3 headphones… …turned them back off, plugged them into my iFi Zen DAC and cranked them up they sounded like… …ass.

Most Bluetooth headphones will use lower cost drivers with issues that have been “corrected” by DSP to the best of their ability to sound good. This is why there is such a big difference in sound from passive (power off) wired mode and active wired/bluetooth mode.

In passive mode what you are hearing is the drivers “natural” frequency-response which most likely has issues such as large peaks/dips and maybe some bad resonances. When the power is switched on the issues are mostly corrected by DSP and you end up with the corrected target response decided by the manufacturers (which often sounds miles ahead of the drivers natural response).

I consider the 3.5mm passive wired input feature on bluetooth headphones as a useful solution if you are “in a pinch”. Such as you are watching in flight entertainment with airplane adapter audio only, or the headphones are about to run out of battery.

Unfortunately a pair of Bluetooth headphones that sounds just as good in passive wired mode as it does in active mode is going to be a rare find.

What you want to look for is a pair of wireless headphones which has been largely designed and tuned as an “analog” pair of wired headphones, with Bluetooth feature stuck on the back of that tuning without any DSP (digital) sound corrections done. I am sure if you look hard enough they will exist. But with this probably only being a handful of headphones, finding one sounding good to you with your preferred tuning might be hard to find.
I haven’t looked into the AKG Bluetooth recommendations those might have been designed this way and if so could be one to consider.
Another one to look into could be the Austrian Audio Hi-X25BT (I haven’t looked to deeply into it just another model to research - being a BT headphone from a studio brand doesn’t guarantee they are good or designed with analog tuning).

Sorry to give you disappointing news but this is the way I understand things to work.

 

[whophant]

pecotunkA and idsyphe​

Thanks so much both of you for your input. And it's not at all disappointing, peco - I was able to surmise everything you're saying about the drivers' "natural" and unequalized frequency response, and I too will take an "in a pinch" approach to my M3 in wired passive mode (though I will always take some wired in-ears with me on planes).

Still, it surprises me - shocks me, even - that Sennheiser would make a premium headphone that sounds so awful in any mode, because to me they're pretty much unlistenable without their DSP.

And so I'm still curious about other brands and models, if there is that much difference between active and passive modes and if any sound really special in passive mode. Not for advice or recommendations - I've spent enough for now - but just curiosity.

 

[pecotunkA]

Still, it surprises me - shocks me, even - that Sennheiser would make a premium headphone that sounds so awful in any mode, because to me they're pretty much unlistenable without their DSP.

yeah I have heard similar opinions to yours regarding certain wireless models from other "reputable" brands, so I have a cautious approach to products.
The worst case is they simply take an off-the-shelf chinese clone, change the tuning a bit then slap their brand name on it and sell them (it's more common than you think).
I don't want to target any specific brand or model as being a clone. but I see something like this on Amazon and it does make me think for a bit before instantly considering them. (this is just the first wireless model I quickly found from a "studio" brand)

also this might be info on the Momentum 4's not the 3's. but even when listening with power on and DSP activated their App only has a 3-band EQ. seriously?
either they don't expect to sell many, or maybe they have info on their end that tells them their wireless headphones and wired headphones sell to two completely different customers. because their long-term customers who they have built their reputation with will certainly have high expectations from the brand.

 

[easo91]

Funny enough the momentum 2 sounds exactly the same qctive vs passive because there isn’t any dsp going on like the 3 so it’s just the regular wired momentum 2 when powered off.

 

[whophant]

Funny enough the momentum 2 sounds exactly the same qctive vs passive because there isn’t any dsp going on like the 3 so it’s just the regular wired momentum 2 when powered off.

That's the most interesting thing I've heard on this topic, and really what I would have expected with the M3, rather than the awfulness I do hear powering them from my amp.

I can't believe there are not more headphones which sound fantastic in both passive and in active mode, and the more that I think about it the more I realize that so many reviews and ratings out there are, or must be, written after listening to those particular BT headphones in active DSP'd mode - or, at least, they don't really specify.

These Momentum 3 are my very first pair of Bluetooth headphones, BION, and I have to say my beliefs and expectations are feeling a little traumatized. Still, and again, they do sound absolutely amazing in active mode - among the best I've ever heard.

Thanks, easo91!

 

[pecotunkA]

hey OP, just heard about this model over in the Bowers and Wilkins PX8 thread.

don't know how deep your pockets are, but the Dali IO-12's marketing describes it sounding equally as good wired (passive) vs wireless. so I assume the tuning has been done in the analog domain.

 

[ryanmatic]

To add to what @pecotunkA said originally, wireless headphones that prioritize a great passive listening experience are fairly niche and include other trade offs to consider. In addition to the flagship Dali mentioned above, there are a few others that come to mind.

• T+A Solitaire T (too expensive for me)
• Dali iO-6 (haven’t tried)
• Master & Dynamic MW75 (haven’t tried, but didn’t like MW65’s poor ANC, fit, and background hiss)
• Shure AONIC 50 (bulky, weak ANC, and somewhat dry presentation)
• Bowers & Wilkins P7 Wireless (no ANC and dated onboard electronics)

To each their own, but FWIW, after years of primarily listening to wireless headphones, I’ve found more success with having a couple of headphones for different use cases. For wireless and noise canceling, the Bowers & Wilkins Px8 get my vote for their amazing midrange and rich low end. For passive home listening and gaming, I have a pair of Beyerdynamic DT177x (that I sometimes pair with an iFi Go Blu) for a more open, relaxed warm/neutral sound. And finally, it’s hard to beat the AirPods Pro when I need ultra portability, conversational transparency, and best-in-class ANC over all else.

Of course, usual disclaimers apply—all three of those headphones start to somewhat approach the cost of the T+A mentioned above, and the minimalist in me would love to just have one set that covers all bases. In addition, after a fair amount of informal personal testing, I’ve decided that source material and amplification is minimally impactful for me, so most of my collection is 256kbps+ AAC and I’m very satisfied with that (so to an extent, passive listening isn’t super important for me). One final consideration—for wireless ANC headphones, as long as you can drive them actively via USB-C, you kind of already get a passive connection there: the quality should be as high as possible given what you’re sending to their onboard DSP, and even if their battery depletes, they should be able to be run indefinitely that way.

Good luck with your search. It’s a rabbit hole, but as long as it’s in service of experiencing your music in the most personally enjoyable way possible, it’s a worthwhile hobby.

 

[pecotunkA]

• T+A Solitaire T (too expensive for me)
• Dali iO-6 (haven’t tried)
• Master & Dynamic MW75 (haven’t tried, but didn’t like MW65’s poor ANC, fit, and background hiss)
• Shure AONIC 50 (bulky, weak ANC, and somewhat dry presentation)
• Bowers & Wilkins P7 Wireless (no ANC and dated onboard electronics)

well that's more options than I thought, although as you say pretty high up there in terms of price. but even with all those options, I guess the next question is: with whichever model, if OP will like the analog tuning?
I think I have seen the Shure AONIC 50 discounted regularly on Amazon.
there is also the Shure AONIC 40 (the little brother, but still over-ear) which I also saw discounted to a more reasonable price, not sure if it gives the same sound with passive as it does wireless though like the AONIC 50. (I think some extensive online research will probably clear that up)

Camels price tracking shows AONIC 40 in both colors has been as cheap as USD$179, but I swear I saw it for less than that at least once (also Prime sales very soon).
as well as 3.5mm wired audio input AONIC 40 also has USB-C pass through audio just like it's bigger brother AONIC 50, which as you said can be a handy feature.
I actually have USB-C pass through audio on my Creative SXFI Air, I don't use it as an audio input but since the headphones can be charged while using any of the input modes (USB-C, bluetooth, SD card) I am never in a low-battery situation when needing to use them to watching a movie.

I also wanted to share an observation since I remember the early days of ANC. back then (around 2015?) most ANC models were passive headphones (tuned in analog domain) and the only active part was the ANC system which was powered by one or two AAA batteries in the earcup. the models I remember at the time were the Bose QC25 and Audio Technica QuietPoint series and I am sure there were some other less known competitors.
so in this aspect I think OP would have been quite happy if ANC headphones remained this way with most of them based on an analog design. I think 2016 or 2017 was when Sony came out with their MDR-1000X which changed the game for ANC headphones, and I think they did such a good job that the subsequent WH-1000XM2, XM3 and XM4 models did not see a drastic improvement in ANC ability, but Sony still dominated the market. in saying this the Bose QC35, 35ii's were quite popular as well, and arguably with a more neutral "audiophile" sound.
- also wanted to note the model number designation for the Sony's. I suspect the MDR-1000X was similar to the rest of the MDR- range at the time, probably had passive analog tuned sound and relied less on DSP (might have utilized some DSP to correct shifts in frequency response just while the ANC is active). then in the next model you see a clear change to WH-1000XM2 (I assume WH = Wireless Headphones?) which I assume moved on/away from analog tuning (and 3.5mm still being the primary input, with bluetooth being optional) and took a more modern approach with full use of DSP (and bluetooth as the primary input, 3.5mm as secondary/optional), I assume there were probably also some small gains they could achieve in the ANC department by embracing DSP.

after years of primarily listening to wireless headphones,

I'm in the same boat. primarily been purchasing wireless since it gets way more use (I also like finding the quirks and features + the ability to do some of your own tuning via DSP if there is an App available).

I started with a pair of decent wired semi-open headphones (Beyerdynamic TYGR 300R) plugged into a DAP playing FLAC files. but as I also listened to music with my at the time available bluetooth earphones, I noticed I could only appreciate the lossless wired setup if I was relaxed lying on my bed and critically listening. don't get me wrong when focused the wired experience is a clear winner but for all other situations (sitting at the computer, washing, cooking, cleaning, outdoors etc) I was completely satisfied with modern bluetooth audio. so that's why since 2020 I have purchased a few full-size bluetooth over-ear headphones (and have another pair on the way) and only 1 set of wired headphones.

even though the beyerdynamic lossless setup is superior and always an option, I think the last time I actually put them on and listened was over 3 or 4 months ago.

 

[ryanmatic]

there is also the Shure AONIC 40 (the little brother, but still over-ear) which I also saw discounted to a more reasonable price, not sure if it gives the same sound with passive as it does wireless though like the AONIC 50. (I think some extensive online research will probably clear that up)

Oh right, I forgot about the 40. If ANC is not a priority, the AONIC is a terrific choice and probably the closest (in my experience) to what you and the OP describe regarding a properly-tuned analog headphone that just happens to have ANC.

even though the beyerdynamic lossless setup is superior and always an option, I think the last time I actually put them on and listened was over 3 or 4 months ago.

Yeah, same—I most often reach for my wireless setup because it sounds so good and is beyond compare when it comes to convenience.

Setting aside source quality for the moment (in my casual experience I cannot consistently differentiate AAC 256kbps+ and lossless), I have been very impressed by how some active headphones are starting to support personalized sound adjustments. The best example I’ve heard so far is with the Beyerdynamic Xelento Wireless 2nd Gen: after doing the MIY sound test, the resulting personalization effect sounds really really good to me; in fact, I think it sounds better than using them wired—without personalization—through a higher quality source than the (already great) neckband they came with.

 

[pecotunkA]

Setting aside source quality for the moment (in my casual experience I cannot consistently differentiate AAC 256kbps+ and lossless),

Yeah well if it means anything, most of the time I listen to YouTube playlists with my bluetooth headphones and I have never been using the computer while listening and thought to myself “this is low resolution”. even with orchestral stuff like this

and yeah a bit different because this is talking about codec vs file type, but I have been perfectly happy with the audio quality of AAC Bluetooth codec that most of the headphones I have utilise while streaming from my iOS device. I thought about trying LDAC once, but realised I none of my BT headphones support it.

I have been very impressed by how some active headphones are starting to support personalized sound adjustments. The best example I’ve heard so far is with the Beyerdynamic Xelento Wireless 2nd Gen: after doing the MIY sound test, the resulting personalization effect sounds really really good to me;

the Creative SXFI Air also has a similar feature, except instead of a listening test you take photos of your ears and upload them.
I must say there was an improvement but it was subtle, which works for me because if it was a sudden night and day difference I would probably think it was more of a gimmicky feature.

anyway I will end it here and not write anymore related to DSP because I feel like I am going off topic from OP’s main request which was “ANC headphones that sound good passive”.
I guess no surprise you and me like bluetooth/DSP processing and it’s modern benefits, but comments full of that info might not be very helpful to OP or those here reading that are after the same goal as OP.