[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg I can't understand why people will spend $$$$ money on a pair of Grado GS-1000's or even Stax O2's, and use them with a sub-par source.

Great long term upgradability prospects in the rest of the system chain?
Because headphones DO make the single biggest difference to the sound?

 

[alex_cs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyline889 What does this have to do with the topic? Headphones that come with leather cases are "high-end" flagship cans? I'm not really sure what you have a problem with. I would love to see a competitor for the higher eschelon ATs, Grados, and Stax. The market is noticeably empty right now and could do with a few more competitors. If they could make a can that was a little more exciting acoustically, and came up with a new headband design for aesthetics, I think they'd have a wonderful headphone to compete with the likes of the Grado GS1000, Stax 4070, SR-007, and the, uh...um...yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolshot well there are tons of FOTM cans out there and it seems beyer has been left in the cold when it comes to these types of discussions. Even the 2006 models didnt get super crazy hype like 701s, gs1000s etc. I also wonder why they dont have 1kish flagship model to showcase what they can do if money were no object. My philosophy is if it doesnt have a Case/Box, then its not an end game can (exceptions of course I.E ad2000).

please read the OT before flying off the handle.

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meyvn Are you suggesting that Beyer doesn't make a top tier headphone so you won't buy it and waste your money on it and not be able to afford a better source? And the way I see it, better headphones generally sound better, regardless of source. I'd rather have a great headphone and a sub par source than an all right headphone and an all right source any day. I'd just buy the great headphone first, then save up for the better source, instead of buying half and half to begin with. more economical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh Great long term upgradability prospects in the rest of the system chain? Because headphones DO make the single biggest difference to the sound?

No on both counts.

What I am suggesting is that Beyer already makes a top-tier headphone. Just because it's not priced at $1k, or come in a special case, doesn't mean it's not top-drawer. I'm suggesting that that extra $800 or more should go into a better source.

While I agree that headphones (and speakers) make the biggest change to a system's overall sound, better headphones won't necessarily make it sound better. An expensive headphone will just show the flaws in a sub-par source, contributing to overall disatisfaction.

A balanced system is the key. Granted there are systems with synergy that prove the exception to the rule, but generally buying a top-heavy (so-to-speak) system is a game of hedged bets, and doesn't necessarily make it sound like a top system. You'll always be waiting to upgrade that next component that will make the difference, and never be happy listening to music with the system you have now.

But that's just me...

 

[J-Pak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus Huh! I should have picked a different example. I don't think you'll see anything that will remotely remind you of the R10's for $1k. JVC sort of kind of tried to do it, but R10's the DX1000's are not! What I was really meaning to communicate in that post was that I think the one thing Beyer should really try to reduce or eliminate if they were to attempt to tweek the DT880 sound would be the "dry" factor. If they could add a little sparkle and 'life' to the DT880's, they would have the perfect reasonably priced headphone on the market today (and here I'm talking about their current DT880 sound, not what a new $1k model might sound like).

Oh I didn't mean an R10 replacement/clone. Just what you described as improvements to the DT880 would be really nice. And I wouldn't really want to pay $1000 for them if they still used plastic. Something has to set them apart from the rest of the line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg No on both counts. What I am suggesting is that Beyer already makes a top-tier headphone. Just because it's not priced at $1k, or come in a special case, doesn't mean it's not top-drawer. I'm suggesting that that extra $800 or more should go into a better source. While I agree that headphones (and speakers) make the biggest change to a system's overall sound, better headphones won't necessarily make it sound better. An expensive headphone will just show the flaws in a sub-par source, contributing to overall disatisfaction. A balanced system is the key. Granted there are systems with synergy that prove the exception to the rule, but generally buying a top-heavy (so-to-speak) system is a game of hedged bets, and doesn't necessarily make it sound like a top system. You'll always be waiting to upgrade that next component that will make the difference, and never be happy listening to music with the system you have now. But that's just me...

I completely agree on a balanced system.

 

[coolshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg No on both counts. What I am suggesting is that Beyer already makes a top-tier headphone. Just because it's not priced at $1k, or come in a special case, doesn't mean it's not top-drawer. I'm suggesting that that extra $800 or more should go into a better source.

i agree with the other two statments but this one not so much. If we take out the variables like source and amp and just leave the cans, there is alot to be desired. if we use a cd,lavry,sp amp and copper ICs for me,

k701 stock: siblant - k1000 not
sr325: too freaking bright -gs1000 not so much
a900: recessed mids-w5000/ad2000 super great mids
etc etc
every company has a complaint about its can in the $300 range regardless. Im just saying that nay sayers cant really find faults on higher teir cans. Its more of a well, this presentation is not my cup of tea.

i agree on the balance thing, but IMO a stock 05 dt880 is not a proper match for a (insert high end 1k source) and a (insert highend 1k+ amp). Then we go back to having the cans not as good as the rest of the chain. There is no way to go up the beyer ladder to combat its weaknesses and thats my whole point.

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolshot Im just saying that nay sayers cant really find faults on higher teir cans. Its more of a well, this presentation is not my cup of tea.

While I agree that not all $300 cans are equally adept, I think the last part of your statement above reflects more a price-based psychology. If a <$300 can exhibited some of those undesirable characteristics as their more expensive siblings, reviewers would be trashing it. It should be the opposite!

Also, just because a headphone doesn't cost >$1000 doesn't mean it shouldn't be in a high-end system. Case in point are the AKG K1000's. For years I've posted that I thought they competed head-to-head with the best of the best, including O2's and even the HE90's. Imo, all three have shortcomings. But when the K1000's were selling for $400-700, reviewers refused to give them their due. Now that they are discontinued and selling for $1200, suddenly they are a top-tier headphone that just requires better, more carefully selected associated components. Uh...yeah, they always were! It's just that at their old prices, people were pairing them up with cheap components willy-nilly, without nearly the thought they would put into an Orpheus system. Oh, and that price-based psychology thing again

. Quote:

IMO a stock 05 dt880 is not a proper match for a (insert high end 1k source) and a (insert highend 1k+ amp).

On that point we will have to agree to disagree

.

Cheers mate!

 

[coolshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg While I agree that not all $300 cans are equally adept, I think the last part of your statement above reflects more a price-based psychology. If a <$300 can exhibited some of those undesirable characteristics as their more expensive siblings, reviewers would be trashing it. It should be the opposite! Cheers mate!

oh there are exceptions both ways which i stated in my original post ie the AD2000 and GS1000. The ad2000 can be had $500, less used and its by far my favorite price/performance can out there. It has no fancy box and no prestige but it does what it does, produce good sound.

now on the other hand, gs1000 is a 1k can that can come balanced straight out the factory. Yet, lots of people still discredit it to a high degree, even as to call it a non highend can for a highend price.

 

[daveDerek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolshot oh there are exceptions both ways which i stated in my original post ie the AD2000 and GS1000. The ad2000 can be had $500, less used and its by far my favorite price/performance can out there. It has no fancy box and no prestige but it does what it does, produce good sound.

having owned the ad2k i'm not sure i'd place it above, or even at the level of a really fine mid priced can such as the akg k701. the k701 has better tone and spaciality. the 2ks were nice and airy, but don't equal , let alone topple, the 701 - nor most of its peers. [see billinkansas' recent shoot out for a nice review/shoot out of several of these cans. ]http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=197853] i'm not sure it's a better phone overall than the 900ltd, although i didn't own them simultaneously. sk138 did however, and both phones were present at the recent va/metro dc metro at centric mini meet, so perhaps slwiser and thrice could also comment. sk138 kept the 900ltds and sent the ad2ks off to another head-fier's home.
imo. ymmv (and apparently does).

 

[slwiser]

daveDerek

I am not sure what I can bring into this discussion. At this level everything sounds fine. It is just that some things sound better to me than others. Everything depends on the synergy of the components upstream of the headphone at this level as well. I continue to enjoy my A900LTDs and my W5000s where each has a significantly different sound presentation but both engage me more than other headphones such as the K701 or the DT880.

I have learned that for myself even how I feel affects which headphone I prefer. Is my blood pressure up or down. Is my stomach upset or do I have a headache. The final transducer in the component train is not the headphone but the human interface, the ear and the mind itself. This is one reason why people may have multiple headphones without realizing it.

I think one can be satisfied and happy with any of the headphones discussed above and not feel bad about having that preference.

We can discuss the characteristics that we hear in a particular headphone but even that has it's limits since we all do not use the same terms to communicate the same issues.

The DT880 to me is very transparent headphone. Once of the most, and the K701 is very transparent as well. Therefore, both need upstream components fitted to unveil the sound that is needed for anyone in particular for each headphone. I really don't think that a 1K plus headphone is actually needed. What is needed is enough personal education to know what sound an individual wants in their system to present. This can take a while to learn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveDerek sk138 did however, and both phones were present at the recent va/metro dc metro at centric mini meet, so perhaps slwiser and thrice could also comment. sk138 kept the 900ltds and sent the ad2ks off to another head-fier's home. imo. ymmv (and apparently does).

 

[daveDerek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus Huh! I should have picked a different example. I don't think you'll see anything that will remotely remind you of the R10's for $1k. JVC sort of kind of tried to do it, but R10's the DX1000's are not! What I was really meaning to communicate in that post was that I think the one thing Beyer should really try to reduce or eliminate if they were to attempt to tweek the DT880 sound would be the "dry" factor. If they could add a little sparkle and 'life' to the DT880's, they would have the perfect reasonably priced headphone on the market today (and here I'm talking about their current DT880 sound, not what a new $1k model might sound like).

the other thing that i'd like to see them add is better soundstaging and more air. akg, senn, at all have a significant edge here. otoh, bd phones are often ahead on the comfort scale.

 

[daveDerek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser daveDerek I am not sure what I can bring into this discussion. At this level everything sounds fine. It is just that some things sound better to me than others. Everything depends on the synergy of the components upstream of the headphone at this level as well. I continue to enjoy my A900LTDs and my W5000s where each has a significantly different sound presentation but both engage me more than other headphones such as the K701 or the DT880. I have learned that for myself even how I feel affects which headphone I prefer. Is my blood pressure up or down. Is my stomach upset or do I have a headache. The final transducer in the component train is not the headphone but the human interface, the ear and the mind itself. This is one reason why people may have multiple headphones without realizing it. I think one can be satisfied and happy with any of the headphones discussed above and not feel bad about having that preference. We can discuss the characteristics that we hear in a particular headphone but even that has it's limits since we all do not use the same terms to communicate the same issues. The DT880 to me is very transparent headphone. Once of the most, and the K701 is very transparent as well. Therefore, both need upstream components fitted to unveil the sound that is needed for anyone in particular for each headphone. I really don't think that a 1K plus headphone is actually needed. What is needed is enough personal education to know what sound an individual wants in their system to present. This can take a while to learn.

steve, thanks for jumping in here. i was hoping you could share your impressions about how you saw the ad2000s in the headphone heirarchy/continuum. i'd have loved to have attended the mini-mieet you guys had. it sounds like it was good fun.

 

[SK138]

I don't know what I can add here other than my personal preference in certain sound signature. I have owned lot of cans in the past. It's been a fun (and very expensive) journey and it's coming to a close for me. Having said that, I absolutely prefer the sound of A900LTD, W5000, and lusting after L3000

These cans I prefer are not neutral soundiing cans. They are colored in ways that gets me involved with the music I am listening.

In the past when I had DT880 and K701, for me, I did not like it because it was too neutral and "boring" in it's presentation. I am not looking for the most accurate sound. I enjoy little spice, magic, and coloration in my music. In that regard, AD2000 for me was "boring" and sort of typical among the cans I owned in the past. I gave each cans best chance by trying to mate with several amps (and DACs) I had at the time; tube amps, hybrid amps, and ss amps. Either way their basic sound characteristic does not change.

All I can say is if a company wants to introduce a top of the line headphone....then it's good for all of us by introducing more options in this small market space and in this fun hobby. They might choose to introduce the most accurate sound or most "attractive" sound...like L3000, R10, W5000, GS1000, etc. I would not consider current expensive headphones to be "recording accurate"...they just sound sweet to ones ear. In the end, that is all that really matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveDerek having owned the ad2k i'm not sure i'd place it above, or even at the level of a really fine mid priced can such as the akg k701. the k701 has better tone and spaciality. the 2ks were nice and airy, but don't equal , let alone topple, the 701 - nor most of its peers. [see billinkansas' recent shoot out for a nice review/shoot out of several of these cans. ]http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=197853] i'm not sure it's a better phone overall than the 900ltd, although i didn't own them simultaneously. sk138 did however, and both phones were present at the recent va/metro dc metro at centric mini meet, so perhaps slwiser and thrice could also comment. sk138 kept the 900ltds and sent the ad2ks off to another head-fier's home. imo. ymmv (and apparently does).

 

[Headphony]

I'm not convinced it takes a big company like Beyerdynamic a 1k retail price to make a truly hi-end headphone. Maybe the DT880 or DT990 really are the best effort they can put out. Unless you want something special like lambskin earpads, mahogany wood trimming, or diamond drivers. See the Manufaktur service

 

[Hi-Finthen]

Above the $400 price point and even at that, the Law of Deminishing Returns enters the factoring heavely as to the reason why, both consumers and therefore Beyer themselves shun this 1K headphone product.