Best Sounding Solder - Any idea?
Mar 22, 2011 at 7:25 AM Post #46 of 68
I think you are much more likely to hear the difference between a good solder
joint and a bad one than what type of solder was used. I would just concentrate
on making good solder joints.
 
Mar 22, 2011 at 8:00 AM Post #47 of 68
To the OP, if you wanted to hear the difference between solders, you would have to disassemble each and every component on your source, amp, interconnects and headphones, then reassemble with your new solder. Then hope you remembered how it sounded before.
 
If you are referring to using different solder on a cable for example, then you've changed maybe 7 out of hundreds of solder joints in the chain. Do you think this will have a significant effect? I don't believe it would.
 
The other thing to consider is listening to the advice already posted here. A good solder joint is where the two parts being soldered are in contact with each other, the solder simply holding them together. The signal does not pass through the solder entirely, unless you have failed and your two parts are not touching at all (thus the signal must travel through the solder entirely).
 
It's like asking if the type of metal used in my hose clamp on the radiator of my car will affect its performance. It's purely preference. Oh and if you want my input, I vote for any solder so long as it contains lead. I love my solder leady.
 
Mar 22, 2011 at 8:25 AM Post #48 of 68
I use Kester 63/37 with a no-clean resin core at work. Works great. (I solder almost daily, so I have a lot of experience with this solder.)
 
I've also used Wonder solder (Signature) and I love it. Don't know if it sounds any better/different than the Kester, but it flows beautifully, even better than the Kester,  and makes very clean solder joints. I'll probably buy a roll when I do my next project.
 
I don't think solder will make much (any?) difference in sound. The solder joint will have a greater effect, I would think.
 
 
 
 
Mar 22, 2011 at 1:47 PM Post #49 of 68

 
Quote:
Just curious, how closely do you match components? A 10% variation is pretty standard. If on the left channel you find a 100 Ohm resistor to measure 96 Ohms and on the right 101 Ohms, can you hear the difference? That causes a real, actual channel imbalance that is measurable with common test gear.


I believe in production variation FAR more than a lot of this other 'stuff'.  Heck- it might even be *gasp* measurable.
 
Quote:
If you're not hearing a difference between channels - especially a measurable difference - then how likely is it that you can hear an unmeasurable difference?

 
Ah... but this is where I bust out my "all things are not measurable" card. 
tongue.gif

 
Here in the back of the bus we are allowed to ask for evidence beyond I hear a difference when I know what I am listening to.  - Nick_Charles
 
Mar 23, 2011 at 4:22 AM Post #50 of 68
There is a slim possibility that there are unmeasurable things at play.

However, that's where science comes in. Millions of mysteries have been solved by science. If something is unknown, throw the scientific method at it. That's why science exists - to learn more and understand the universe.

However, there's a giant catch here. If you, arguendo, take the possibility that different solders affect an electrical signal in noticeable ways, then that extends beyond audio to anything electronic or electric. In other words, different solder should change the way a light bulb or electric motor behaves. If the difference is real, then why doesn't a light bulb or motor behave differently? And why hasn't this been noticed in - literally - millions of tests of these devices?

Audio doesn't exist in a vacuum. If something changes electrical properties, it will make a change in a wide variety of devices. Not just your headphones, but your microwave oven or TV set should behave differently, too.
 
Mar 24, 2011 at 2:11 AM Post #51 of 68


Quote:
... but your microwave oven or TV set should behave differently, too.


Obviously you haven't had a Hot Pocket out of my re-cabled microwave oven.
 
-edited to add something relevant to the OT:
 
To be fair, I've heard the argument about weakest link here many times when applied to everything from bitrates to amplifiers- proof be damned.  Some like to equate it to the flow of water, such that an ocean can only deliver so much through a garden hose.  It's much more like the ingredients in food.  What's more important: The quality of the mozzarella on a pizza- or the plate that it's served on?  Sometimes for charity or to keep the peace you just have to nod and say, "If it makes you feel good, then fine."  But when you make huge claims, it's not unreasonable to ask for proof.
 
Mar 24, 2011 at 3:26 PM Post #53 of 68
Though I tend to play down most similar things, I actually have some sympathy with the idea that solder can make a difference. It's exactly the kind of difference that different cables make, or different wiring or schematic layouts. Comparing solder to a hose clamp isn't quite right (just to pick one example of several). Particularly in printed circuits, the solder makes up the path through which electrons flow. Even if there's contact between the electrical parts, the highest octave of music is high frequency enough to exhibit skin effects, so the addition of solder could affect the path that electrons take, and skin effects can make that path frequency dependent. Unlike with light, our ears do hear phase differences. Now I don't want to make too much of this when solder is such a small part of any circuit, even though there can be quite a few connections in the audio path. It's more likely to my thinking that the differences in wetting & adhesion between different solders create more or less reliable and chemically-stable & secure contact, i.e.better or worse joints, with more or less contact area. So the focus on making good joints is right on target, but the composition of the solder might matter, especially over time. It's just a small part of overall circuit layout, but I'm not comfortable telling anyone to outright ignore this aspect of layout.
 
Mar 24, 2011 at 4:03 PM Post #54 of 68
What, too poor for anti-grav plates? I'll be here enjoying my extra delicious pizza. The grain the pizza base was made from? Harvested on a full moon. The peppers? Extinct, now.
 
Quote:
Exactly, my pizza tastes much better when eating it off the good china.



 
 
Mar 25, 2011 at 1:54 AM Post #55 of 68
SiBurning, I'm still waiting for actual evidence that cables make a difference.

I don't find testimonials, folklore and superstition convincing.

If you know of measurable differences or someone passing an unsighted listening test, please let us know.
 
Mar 25, 2011 at 6:13 AM Post #57 of 68


Quote:
Though I tend to play down most similar things, I actually have some sympathy with the idea that solder can make a difference. It's exactly the kind of difference that different cables make, or different wiring or schematic layouts. Comparing solder to a hose clamp isn't quite right (just to pick one example of several). Particularly in printed circuits, the solder makes up the path through which electrons flow. Even if there's contact between the electrical parts, the highest octave of music is high frequency enough to exhibit skin effects, so the addition of solder could affect the path that electrons take, and skin effects can make that path frequency dependent. Unlike with light, our ears do hear phase differences. Now I don't want to make too much of this when solder is such a small part of any circuit, even though there can be quite a few connections in the audio path. It's more likely to my thinking that the differences in wetting & adhesion between different solders create more or less reliable and chemically-stable & secure contact, i.e.better or worse joints, with more or less contact area. So the focus on making good joints is right on target, but the composition of the solder might matter, especially over time. It's just a small part of overall circuit layout, but I'm not comfortable telling anyone to outright ignore this aspect of layout.


 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as tin and lead have a higher resistivity and about the same magnetic permeability as copper (all being essentially non-magnnetic), wouldn't they have a bigger skin depth?
For your second part. Pull out your DMM and measure the contact. If it's good, it's good. There's no point in philosophizing over these issues when you can get a definitive answer in just a few seconds.
 
Whiskers developing over time is a real problem, but the consequenses of this can be documented, see?
 
Mar 25, 2011 at 9:08 PM Post #58 of 68
If you want to make a valid point, provide evidence, simple as that.  If you can't, it will not be taken seriously.  We'll be living in a dangerous world if that wasn't the case.  Lets move on.
 
Mar 27, 2011 at 1:45 AM Post #59 of 68

 
Quote:
SiBurning, I'm still waiting for actual evidence that cables make a difference.

I don't find testimonials, folklore and superstition convincing.

If you know of measurable differences or someone passing an unsighted listening test, please let us know.


People don't argue much over design issues on pc boards. It's pretty much accepted wisdom to round off corners, keep spacing even, etc. From that point of view, there doesn't seem to be nearly as much thought given to the solder connection, at least around here. I've tried to stay away from contributing on whether or not you'll detect a sonic difference in favor of just making some technical arguments.
 
limpidglitch,
This part in blue is wrong as corrected in a post below. The speed of sound isn't the same in air & an electric circuit. The actual effect is probably negligible. The wavelength of a 10 kHz sound is about 34 mm. 22 gauge wire has a diameter of 0.644 mm. Assuming the contact to be a point, if the high frequency travels along the edge, it traverses half the diameter on entering a trace, and half again when leaving it. After 26 points, that part of the signal is completely inverted relative to lower frequencies. My assumption above is that adding solder to a joint will change the geometry and have an impact on this effect. In this case, a joint isn't just a joint. In addition, the geometry can change the frequency-dependent resistance--i.e. capacitance and inductance. Needless to say, this is a very odd thing to consider in design & construction since every point of contact, whether a solder connection, or contact between materials in a component, would experience the same effect, and trying to keep track of it all is... let's just say it would be very difficult. But I have to stress that the same kinds of effects in other areas, such as corners and trace widths, are examined in the design of every pc board. Perhaps this specific one, like may others, is handled by rules of thumb about soldering and designing traces.
 
Again, I'd rather not make any claims one way or another as to whether any of this has a sonic impact. I only mean to point out that there are some relevant factors here that are measurable and have a demonstrable and measurable impact on electrical circuits.
 
As far as offering an opinion, yes I believe cables and other things can impact the sound. In particular, I have a marked preference for amplifiers that can deliver very high levels of current, and using fatter than necessary cables. The problem is, the whole subject is way too complicated. For one thing, the speed of sound isn't quite linear, and neither is a speaker, nor indeed does every sound have the same linear properties. For example, a gunshot isn't linear because it compresses too fast, causing turbulence, while a similar sound with similar frequencies but a different envelope and perhaps less energy might be more linear. This issue is complicated much further by our ears and the environment which provide even more nonlinearities. If sound propagation isn't linear, the whole point above about how the skin effect--or anything else--can change the phase is pretty much swamped by the environment. That's a good reason not to bother much about it.
 
By the way, my original post was meant more as a fun thought experiment--almost tongue in cheek--than a serious defense of the importance of using a particular solder. But you got that point by now. Still, there's some valid theory here, and I for one would not discourage anyone from following up on it. Over time, the line between engineering and black art moves. Perhaps over the next 100 years there will be enough advances in this area that we're no longer arguing this particular point. Perhaps one of the pioneers is a member of Head-Fi. But not to worry. Any such advance will bring with it new points to argue over.
 
Mar 27, 2011 at 1:58 AM Post #60 of 68
Solder has a sound? When the PCB board goes through a solder machine or station, the last thing those workers think about is the sound of their solder. When the QA people look at the PCB board on the microscope, they look for the quality of the solder and for solder balls.
 

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