Best Sounding Solder - Any idea?
Mar 27, 2011 at 9:11 AM Post #61 of 68

 
Quote:
 

People don't argue much over design issues on pc boards. It's pretty much accepted wisdom to round off corners, keep spacing even, etc. From that point of view, there doesn't seem to be nearly as much thought given to the solder connection, at least around here. I've tried to stay away from contributing on whether or not you'll detect a sonic difference in favor of just making some technical arguments.
 
limpidglitch,
The wavelength of a 10 kHz sound is about 34 mm. 22 gauge wire has a diameter of 0.644 mm. Assuming the contact to be a point, if the high frequency travels along the edge, it traverses half the diameter on entering a trace, and half again when leaving it. After 26 points, that part of the signal is completely inverted relative to lower frequencies. My assumption above is that adding solder to a joint will change the geometry and have an impact on this effect. In this case, a joint isn't just a joint. In addition, the geometry can change the frequency-dependent resistance--i.e. capacitance and inductance. Needless to say, this is a very odd thing to consider in design & construction since every point of contact, whether a solder connection, or contact between materials in a component, would experience the same effect, and trying to keep track of it all is... let's just say it would be very difficult. But I have to stress that the same kinds of effects in other areas, such as corners and trace widths, are examined in the design of every pc board. Perhaps this specific one, like may others, is handled by rules of thumb about soldering and designing traces.
 
Again, I'd rather not make any claims one way or another as to whether any of this has a sonic impact. I only mean to point out that there are some relevant factors here that are measurable and have a demonstrable and measurable impact on electrical circuits.
 
As far as offering an opinion, yes I believe cables and other things can impact the sound. In particular, I have a marked preference for amplifiers that can deliver very high levels of current, and using fatter than necessary cables. The problem is, the whole subject is way too complicated. For one thing, the speed of sound isn't quite linear, and neither is a speaker, nor indeed does every sound have the same linear properties. For example, a gunshot isn't linear because it compresses too fast, causing turbulence, while a similar sound with similar frequencies but a different envelope and perhaps less energy might be more linear. This issue is complicated much further by our ears and the environment which provide even more nonlinearities. If sound propagation isn't linear, the whole point above about how the skin effect--or anything else--can change the phase is pretty much swamped by the environment. That's a good reason not to bother much about it.
 
By the way, my original post was meant more as a fun thought experiment--almost tongue in cheek--than a serious defense of the importance of using a particular solder. But you got that point by now. Still, there's some valid theory here, and I for one would not discourage anyone from following up on it. Over time, the line between engineering and black art moves. Perhaps over the next 100 years there will be enough advances in this area that we're no longer arguing this particular point. Perhaps one of the pioneers is a member of Head-Fi. But not to worry. Any such advance will bring with it new points to argue over.



SiBurning, let's get it straight. Probably you are preparing the ground for selling new kind of audiophile solder but your knowledge about current conduction is non-existent. You mistake very basic laws of physics. 34mm wavalength it is an acoustic wave in the air assuming 1023hPa of ambient pressure. In the wire you've got electric waves travelling near light speed which results in 30km. Skin depth of a 10kHz sine waveform is something below 1mm but skin depth is no barrier. It's where you go down to 0.37 of the resistance, no barrier actually. The resistance of the copper wire is several times lower at the same cross section than any solder you take, so the current divides accordingly, not 1:1. Most signal paths excluding power output lead to high impedances. How do I care about the fact that the wire resistance is unbalanced even by the order of 10 when it's still 0.1 ohm against 0.01 ohm supplying 10k ohm or usually more? If you want to teach anybody, learn the matter first.
 
Mar 28, 2011 at 3:57 AM Post #62 of 68
Just to be a devil's advocate, there are very real and consequential differences in behavior of junctions of dissimilar metals based on the alloys.
A thermocouple is a simple device with well documented and measurable properties. A solder joint is a crude thermocouple.

I would bet against pretty long odds there is no audible difference betwen solders, but it is within the realm of possibility. I actually think it is much more likely that solder influences sound than cabling, although nether appear very likely. I personally can't hear a difference, but I haven't spent any real effort looking to.

I like quad eutectic myself.
 
Mar 28, 2011 at 6:07 AM Post #63 of 68

Quote:
 


SiBurning, let's get it straight. Probably you are preparing the ground for selling new kind of audiophile solder but your knowledge about current conduction is non-existent. You mistake very basic laws of physics. 34mm wavalength it is an acoustic wave in the air assuming 1023hPa of ambient pressure. In the wire you've got electric waves travelling near light speed which results in 30km. Skin depth of a 10kHz sine waveform is something below 1mm but skin depth is no barrier. It's where you go down to 0.37 of the resistance, no barrier actually. The resistance of the copper wire is several times lower at the same cross section than any solder you take, so the current divides accordingly, not 1:1. Most signal paths excluding power output lead to high impedances. How do I care about the fact that the wire resistance is unbalanced even by the order of 10 when it's still 0.1 ohm against 0.01 ohm supplying 10k ohm or usually more? If you want to teach anybody, learn the matter first.
 
Thanks for the correction. Yes, I goofed about the speed of sound. But it doesn't make anything else wrong, merely suspect.
 
Now to correct you (that's only fair) you mistake my motives.  I post stuff like this to make people think a bit deeper. In that sense, your post is a great follow up. The problem is, I haven't really been involved much in about 20 years, so a lot stuff is fuzzy to me, out of date, and I just don't think about it much, so I make mistakes. But someone has to do this. If guys like you stay away, then dummies like me have to fill in.
 
Please continue. 
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Mar 28, 2011 at 5:48 PM Post #64 of 68
OK, then. What you/we need to evaluate is how big the fraction of the current goes through the solder joints and on what distance. Looking at the length of the signal path, most of the way are wires and copper traces. relatively, the solder "journey" is I think below 1%, I guess well below. In the tinned traces is like I described in my previous post - there is current density division due to medium resistance. So, when we take all the percentage and present it in decibeles we get something well below the hearing threshold, indiscernible. The only difference between solder alloys - if it really appears - is forming micro-barriers of potential, say diodes, and then each solder might build different voltage barriers and affect sound but it's just speculation if those barriers really exist. On the other hand, there is always copper-solder-copper transistion which should compensate itself. So, I believe there are no sonic differences as I haven't heard them. :)
 
Mar 29, 2011 at 4:22 AM Post #65 of 68
Hi-fi is a very strange thing.
 
Look, even if you had super sounding silver solder, you still need to use bad recorded and mastered CDs and the people who made them use god knows how long chain of equipment with "regular not good sounding solder".
 
We can argue just about anything: quality of copper, quality of inner connection of parts and their pins. Why do we use copper and not silver PCBs when we use silver cables. Why are not output transformers' wires made of silver, gold or whatever? And so on...
 
If you really want, you could drill small holes into your PCBs and deform pins for good connection with copper and use solder just as glue.
 
Mar 30, 2011 at 2:42 AM Post #66 of 68
I'm amazed that anyone wouldn't like Cardas quad eutectic.  What's not to like?  It melts ridiculously easily, sticks like crazy to anything, and has never failed me in soldering even the most obnoxious of parts.  
 
Mar 30, 2011 at 4:56 AM Post #67 of 68
The answer is trivial. Whatever shop with electronic parts I choose, they have SnAg, SnCu and SnPb of the same vendor and it's cheap enough to take it and not to look at the others. It doesn't cause any soldering problems, either, as I have two soldering pastes on hand to choose between and support soldering - moderately reactive and highly reactive for rusted wires, containing zinc chloride. The Cardas quad eutectic solder is not the best I have tried. The best solder, and RoHS compliant in addition, is the one Audio Note uses. I worked with it once when upgrading my friend's amplifier from Audio Note with parts he received from them as well as the portion of solder in order to not mix alloys when replacing parts in soldering points. It melts very well and contains 4.7% of silver per information from my friend.
 
Mar 30, 2011 at 11:21 AM Post #68 of 68
I'm planning to try out a RMA solder next. I've always used kester 44, but I'm getting sick of the huge amounts of flux residue left behind. I know they say it's safe to leave on, though I don't see how that's possible for an RA flux, but even so it looks horrible. I don't trust no-clean solders as they may not keep your tip completely clean to prevent oxidization, so I'm hoping RMA is a nice middle ground. I know organic water-soluble would be nice but I don't know if I want to commit to always cleaning every board within an hour of two of doing any soldering, and then having to clean and re-tin my tips with RMA after every soldering session as well.
 
 
 
 

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