[hardtimes]

EDIT, Nov. 4
 
I changed the title of the thread both to reflect the direction it seems to be taking and to remove the impression that the 602 does not work for Macs. There are plenty of details about the 602 in the threads linked to below; those are more appropriate forums for those discussions.
 
I'm hoping this thread can evolve into a discussion of Mac DAPs. I've already gotten an education about the some of the built-in limitations, which seem to me to be as follows:
 
* While the iPod is clearly the most popular DAP out there, there are many DAPs made by other manufacturers that either are unable to support Apple lossless files (they can appear as m4p, m4a, or ALAC), and others that offer spotty or inconsistent support.
* While iTunes can play 24/96 files, iPods -- and many other DAPs -- can not.
 
Also, this seems to be a more general issue which I'll add in here:
 
* some players do not support gapless playback -- an issue in instances like the second half of Abbey Road, many concert recordings, some suites, etc.
 
In my initial post (still included below in its entirety), I was looking for what some other head-fiers referred to as "purple unicorns" -- namely, the ability to play both FLAC and ALAC in native 24/96. As fun as purple unicorns sound, I'm going to be more realistic and try to figure out an option for a player that can handle 24/96 players even if they play them as 16/44 files. (For instance: using iTunes and an iPod, it's not even possible to load on 24/96 ALAC files.)
 
 
***
 
INITIAL POST
 
Anyone who has been perusing the HM-602 preorder thread or the initial impressions thread knows some Mac users have been unable to use the 602. FWIW, this seems to be limited to notebook users -- either MacBooks or MacBook Pros -- and hasn't been universal. For instance, I couldn't use the 602 on my 2008 MacBook but could use it without any problem on a friend's 2006 MacBook. Also, some other head-fiers haven't had any problems using the 602 with their laptops. According to Fang at Head Direct this is due to a USB power issue. Regardless, I suspect this will be enough to convince some Mac users interested in a high-end DAP to hold off.
 
That leaves me with a question: What DAP can I get, keeping in mind the following considerations:
 
1. Obviously, it needs to work with a Mac.
2. It needs to play Apple Lossless files in addition to Flac files. It doesn't need to do things like display album art Apple Lossless. I mention this only because I've seen some discussion about how the Cowons can play ALACs even though it's not a listed format but they don't display the album art.
3. It needs to be able to handle 24/96 files.
 
Other issues I feel strongly about but which likely aren't deal breakers:
1. Decent storage capacity (or ability to add on capacity). Most of my albums are between 500MB and 1gb, so an 8gb or even 16gb player is tough.
2. A somewhat intuitive interface. I include this b/c as a longtime iPod user, I've become somewhat spoiled in this regard. (I didn't realize how spoiled until I tried to use the 602 after loading on some music off of my friend's computer. Even if it had worked on my computer, it's possible I would have ended up throwing it out the window in frustration.)
3. Support for gapless albums. Another thing I didn't realize was even an issue until the 602: the last half of Abbey Road is a whole different (and by different I mean much worse) experience when there's a 1 second hiccup between each "song."
 
Compatibility with iTunes makes absolutely no difference to me. In fact, drag-and-drop might even be preferable, but either is totally fine.
 
Before I get a whole bunch of responses about how I should peruse the forums -- believe me, I've perused the forums. I've read about the battle of the DAPs, but don't have the right generation for an iMod. I've read page after page about the Cowon j3 and about how the j3 was briefly exiled from Amazon -- and I still can't tell if I'll be able to play lossless files. I've read the discussion about whether iPods are a no-go for audiophiles, the debate over the Clip+ vs. the i9 vs. the Fuse+ vs. the Nano and the one over the s:Flo2 vs. the Clip+. I couldn't find any info that was simultaneously up to date and addressed the above. (If there are said answers somewhere, I apologize for this...)
 
Some other related questions: I know there are a whole host of LOD that can be used with iPods. I also know 24/96 files won't even load on an iPod if you try to do it through iTunes. Is there someway to drag-and-drop into a iPod and use a LOD to connect to a portable DAC (or DAC/amp) that would allow you do play 24/96 and flac files?
 
A related question, which actually probably should have been asked first: Can you bypass the iPod's internal DAC using a LOD?
 
My gear: I have a pair of AKG 702s, Grado s80s, and at the moment, HD RE262s (although they might need to get returned if I don't find some way to sell the HM602 on its own).
 
Finally -- and this is sort of a bonus question I'm throwing out there -- is there a portable amp (i.e., one I can use on the couch or in bed) that would sufficiently power the 702s that comes in at a cheaper price point than the HeadRoom Portable Micro, which is $399? There seems to be some consensus that the Bithead isn't quite up to the task -- although if I do keep the 262s (or buy another pair of IEMs), I would likely just get the Bithead.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

 
Finally -- and this is sort of a bonus question I'm throwing out there -- is there a portable amp (i.e., one I can use on the couch or in bed) that would sufficiently power the 702s that comes in at a cheaper price point than the HeadRoom Portable Micro, which is $399? There seems to be some consensus that the Bithead isn't quite up to the task -- although if I do keep the 262s (or buy another pair of IEMs), I would likely just get the Bithead.

I think the Headstage Arrow and Meier Stepdance are your best bets there.  Pico and TTVJ slims are possibilities as well.

 

[hardtimes]

Quote:

I think the Headstage Arrow and Meier Stepdance are your best bets there.  Pico and TTVJ slims are possibilities as well.

thanks. i'll probably wait until i figure out about what DAP to get before shelling out for an amp. Who knew it would be so hard to spend money?
 
Would the iMods or the WhipMODs be good options for the issues above?

 

[shigzeo]

If it has to support ALAC, I think the only option is iPod as only it and RB'xed players can play it. Otherwise, as noted here, pay for a nice amp/DAC. The DACPort is amazing.

 

[hardtimes]

Quote:

If it has to support ALAC, I think the only option is iPod as only it and RB'xed players can play it. Otherwise, as noted here, pay for a nice amp/DAC. The DACPort is amazing.

I have the AudioGD Sparrow for my desktop rig. I know there's now a way to use the DACPort with a iPod, but it seems like that doesn't really make sense b/c a) you'd need to carry around a powered usb hub and b) iPod's still can't play flac or 24/96 -- unless I'm missing something. From the hints on that CEntrance forum thread, it sounds like it's possible they'll be coming out with some all-in-one portable device sometime in the next few months, but who knows what that'll be able to do...

 

[rawrster]

The DAP that you want does not exist. ALAC and FLAC to go along with 24/96?

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

The DAP that you want does not exist. ALAC and FLAC to go along with 24/96?

I was gonna say but just wasn't 100% sure we were chasing Unicorns.

 

[shigzeo]

Rawrster read between the lines. There isn't a DAP out there that does what you want other than old iPods that can be rockboxed. That is why people are suggesting amps/DACS here to pair with a laptop. ALAC is Apple's proprietary implementation of AAC - no one else uses it. Then, native playback of 24/96? You are asking too much even without the ALAC compatibility from almost any source.
 
Quote:

The DAP that you want does not exist. ALAC and FLAC to go along with 24/96?

 

[hardtimes]

Quote:

Then, native playback of 24/96? You are asking too much even without the ALAC compatibility from almost any source.
 

 

 
Isn't that what the 602s and 801s offer - 24/96 playback? Obviously without ALAC compatibility -- but I didn't think 24/96 playback was that rare -- just expensive. I'm not trying to be obtuse -- I just really do feel like I must be missing something.
 
Is there an option that can play 24/96 files, even it down-samples them to 16/44, and can handle ALAC and flac?
 
Or maybe the best way to ask the question is this: I have a lot of flac files in 24/96, and a lot of m4a files, some of which are in 24/96 but most of which are either 24/48 or 16/44. If I want to be able to play all of those files on a Mac-compatible DAP, and with the understanding that I'm not going to get 24/96 playback, do I have any options -- and if I do, what are they?
 
And if that's not possible, is there an Mac-compatible DAC that can load 24/96 m4a files, even if it can't do native 24/96 playback? (Much more of my music is in Apple lossless than in flac, so I could just convert what I wanted to play that I have on flac if need be.) Obviously the iPods/iPhones don't fit that bill -- they won't even let you load on 24/96 files.

 

[Anaxilus]

Purple Unicorns.
 
Best bet is a 11.6" Macbook air w/ a DACPort.  Beg Jobs to make a 8-10" Netbook that is beneath him or an iPad w/ a proper USB port/PS.

 

[melomaniac]

Quote:

Purple Unicorns.
 
Best bet is a 11.6" Macbook air w/ a DACPort.  Beg Jobs to make a 8-10" Netbook that is beneath him or an iPad w/ a proper USB port/PS.

said it before and will say it again: get a cheap netbook, hackintosh it, and use a good USB DAC-amp like the Pico or DacPort. you'll have a fully functional laptop with 10" screen and full keyboard, bluetooth and camera etc etc. and plenty of HD space for your files, light weight and sturdy, with good SQ without having to spend much (a lot less, in fact, than with an iPad or Air!)

 

[warp08]

Quote:

thanks. i'll probably wait until i figure out about what DAP to get before shelling out for an amp. Who knew it would be so hard to spend money?
 
Would the iMods or the WhipMODs be good options for the issues above?

No iPod is capable of going above 24/96, but why is that a big issue on the go?  A WhipMOD is a great alternative if you must have gapless playback capability and have a large iTunes library like me.  But to go the WhipMOD route and get the maximum performance will essentially require to go all TWag to leverage the synergy that exist within the internal SCSCag wiring upgrades and the rest of the TWag LOD+IEM replacement cable (if you want to use an IEM-class phone).  In that case, depending on the amp you'll pay up to 3 times the cost of the HM-602, again depending on the cost of the amp chosen, but you'll get one helluva portable platform with a boatload of storage and a superior UI, not to mention tight integration with Macs or Windows PCs, rockboxed or not.
 
Don't get me wrong, I love high-res recordings and have about a 100 SACDs to prove it.  I just don't think it's as big of a deal in the portable world as it is in the high-end audio market, but it is just one guy's opinion.  

 

[hardtimes]

Quote:

No iPod is capable of going above 24/96, but why is that a big issue on the go?

 
It's not so much an on-the-go issue, it's a portability in my house issue. Since my computer is hooked up to several hard drives (and all of my music is on one of those hard drives), and it's also connected to an external monitor, etc etc., it's a bit of a hassle to move it from room to room. But even more than wanting to listen to the music in 24/96, I just want to listen to the music, period--and right now there's no way for me to load any of the 24/96 files I have on an iPod, regardless of how they're played back.
 
To deal with this issue, I've taken to converting 24/96 flacs into 24/48 Apple Lossless files (and keeping the original), which lets me both load them into iTunes and put them on an iPod. But I do still have a fair number of 24/96 Apple Lossless files, and I was trying to find a solution other than converting all of those to 24/48 so I could load them on a DAP.
 
Quote:

A WhipMOD is a great alternative if you must have gapless playback capability and have a large iTunes library like me.  But to go the WhipMOD route and get the maximum performance will essentially require to go all TWag to leverage the synergy that exist within the internal SCSCag wiring upgrades and the rest of the TWag LOD+IEM replacement cable (if you want to use an IEM-class phone).

 
An iMod with an ALO audio line-out to a portable amp should also do the trick, right? Or is the consensus that WhipMODs are the best iPod mod for the money out there at the moment?
 
Quote:

In that case, depending on the amp you'll pay up to 3 times the cost of the HM-602, again depending on the cost of the amp chosen, but you'll get one helluva portable platform with a boatload of storage and a superior UI, not to mention tight integration with Macs or Windows PCs, rockboxed or not.

 
yeah -- i'm starting to realize just how expensive this type of rig would be. i'd need to keep it under $500 for the moment -- which also might keep me at an iMod as opposed to a WhipMOD, b/c there seem to be more of the former available to buy used.
 
Quote:

Don't get me wrong, I love high-res recordings and have about a 100 SACDs to prove it.  I just don't think it's as big of a deal in the portable world as it is in the high-end audio market, but it is just one guy's opinion.

 
that gets in to a whole other issue for me: whether this money is better spent setting up a high-end digital hook-up to my existing stereo system. but that's a subject for another day...

 

[warp08]

Quote:

 
An iMod with an ALO audio line-out to a portable amp should also do the trick, right? Or is the consensus that WhipMODs are the best iPod mod for the money out there at the moment?
 

Yes, and any ranking of the two systems would be subjective at best, just like any comparison review can be by their nature.  I no longer have an ALO LOD to compare, but I did own one once and they are quality products as well, but they use a different cable.  There are those who find the warmth of copper or silver-plated copper superior to that of pure silver and that's all that matters.
 
I have compared my experience with my Super iMod and the WhipMOD, and found the latter to be a superior combination to the all-TWag setup I have with the amps I have tested with.  It is theoretically possible that an iMod+ALO LOD+ALO RX 2 amp+ALO IEM replacement cable could perform equally well to my own or someone else's liking.  I don't know because I never had a chance to listen to that combo.
 
It would help, if other WhipMOD owners would post their impressions of their rig to the benefit of the forum and I've seen a few positive posts about them.  Until that happens, I wouldn't call it a consensus, perhaps one man's opinion...

 

[Nankai]

HM-602 does work on most mac computers. We did a lot of test on a Mac mini this week. We noticed that HM-602 can be identified by the USB port in the back panel, but it does have problem when connecting to USB port on the keyboard. The problem actually is that some Mac USB ports on keyboard / monitor can not provide enough current. We have shipped hundreds of HM-602 players. So far we only got two customers complain about their HM-602 can not work on their mac.