[Loz2103]

Clearly, people have different opinions on this matter. I expected this. What would really help is if people explained why they feel a certain way. That way it will hopefully help me arrive at my ultimate decision.

 

[audiogamma]

RME Babyface at $700 (auth dealers on ebay; $700 best offer) and Ultrasone Pro 900. Provided you're a basshead and don't like mids.

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

What would really help is if people explained why they feel a certain way. That way it will hopefully help me arrive at my ultimate decision.

I nearly suggested the Audio GD 10SE as well... even though it eats $550 of your budget - for one reason. It pretty much cures most of the mid-range upgrade-itis. You won't find a need to look for another amp (until you are willing to get into really big money)... it has gobs of power, and it offers the option of balanced operation. Which means it will drive just about ANY dynamic or orthodynamic on the market. So you can add headphones to your stable as you see fit down the line, and always have something perfectly capable of driving them well. Plus you'll still have your EF2A to use for tube-rolling and warm fuzzy goodness on the side. 
 
It is just a bonus that the 10SE it has a great DAC built in it. 
 
That plus the Sennheiser 650, or any other high-end can whose signatures seem to mesh with your desires, will be a great set up for a long time. 
 
Audio GD gear offers a lot of bang for your buck. I've been very impressed with them and will be buying a 10SE myself. 

 

[Brooko]

Loz
 
Surprised no-one has asked yet ..... but can you give a little more info?
 

• What type of music do you listen to?  Favourite genres etc?
• Do you prefer any type of signature - eg detailed and airy / warm and dark / bassy / neutral / laid-back / high energy etc?  Any descriptions of what you like would help.
• Are you intending selling current set-up?  Reason for asking is that if you weren't, then that could be your office set-up, leaving the $1000 purely for a home set-up.
• Do you have a portable player?  Are IEM's ok?  Just thinking of your portable player options.  I use IEMs for travel and any portability - then have my open cans for home.

 
Any insight you give would help others narrow your choices.  Then you won't simply get the shotgun approach you're currently getting.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Clearly, people have different opinions on this matter. I expected this. What would really help is if people explained why they feel a certain way. That way it will hopefully help me arrive at my ultimate decision.

Good point. Requires a bit of history though, so this wont be so short.
 
Some years back, Grado made a line of high-end headphones, the HP-1000/HP2 and others which are still revered for their excellent sound, but were sadly discontinued. They often sell second-hand for around $1500-2000. As tends to happen with regular Grados, people became interested in modding them to change or improve the design. A member here, Rhydon, has taken that to an extreme and, though he never implicitly said it, has worked on re-producing a similar high-quality design, primarily by making his own drivers and the "sleeves" that hold them in place in Grados. His original idea was to take the aluminum cup 325is, remove the wood sleeves and install his driver and aluminum sleeves, along with (expensive!) gimbals etc. However, people asked about just putting the drivers and sleeves in only, to save on the cost, as the gimbals are only cosmetically pleasing and don't contribute to the sound quality. So what this boils down to is that you can get high quality drivers and aluminum sleeves (which affect the sound quality through damping and reflection) in even a cheap pair of SR-60s. I think the costs come to about $60 for the SR-60s + $240 for the drivers and sleeves. Not sure if that includes modification, as I got a pair well before the cheaper mods were offered.
 
I personally reckon my pair is up there with the $1000+ headphones available for sound quality. I'm keen to get opinions from other people on that as I don't think my word should be taken as gospel, ever. I paid about $700 all up for the original, full mod, so I reckon $300 is a bargain for them, easily.
 
As for the NFB-10SE, I don't reckon it is so far behind my main rig, which costs 8x the price, even if I set it up in the least optimum scenario, plugged into the same power board as my computer gear (thus inviting the most noise) and using optical from my MacBook Pro (which is technically the worst option for digital audio). There is a lot of good technology in the unit too, primarily the good power supply design, good DAC and good amplification. Usually, from a "high-end" perspective, having everything in one box is a compromise, but I think this does extremely well considering.
 
An important caveat: I haven't tested any huge variety of gear out there in comparison at the same price point as the NFB-10SE and there is a lot that looks worthy of consideration from companies such as Schiit (started by two guys who are famous for their audio gear), as well as quite a bit of underrated pro-audio gear (I have a Metric Halo ULN-2 here which cost me only $700 second-hand for example, but is fantastic), but you said $1000 all up.
 
Other headphones I'd consider, depending on music preferences and preferred listening volume (which are the most important things!): Sennheiser HD-600s - more open and wide sound and more comfortable, but very good at rocking out with good gear and can be found quite cheap second-hand. You might be able to stretch in a pair of HD-650s second-hand, but they have a different sound signature. Huge debates used to erupt between people over which of the two is better, but it always comes down to personal preference. Both would pair well with the NFB-10SE though in my opinion.
 
So, I reckon, including shipping, you could get a pretty good rig for $1k easily nowadays.

 

[Loz2103]

Thanks to Liam and Curra for two great explanations. I really appreciate your thoughts. It's all a lot to take in, but I'm trying.
 
Brooko, to answer your questions:
 
Quote:

• What type of music do you listen to? Favourite genres etc?
• Do you prefer any type of signature - eg detailed and airy / warm and dark / bassy / neutral / laid-back / high energy etc? Any descriptions of what you like would help.
• Are you intending selling current set-up? Reason for asking is that if you weren't, then that could be your office set-up, leaving the $1000 purely for a home set-up.
• Do you have a portable player? Are IEM's ok? Just thinking of your portable player options. I use IEMs for travel and any portability - then have my open cans for home.

 
1.) All types. I know this doesn't help much, but I really do. I would say when I'm working, and this will be be the primary time I use the system, I listen to electronica, post-rock, ambient and acoustic stuff.
 
2.) I'm not a bass-head that's for sure, but the bass does have to be tight. Warm is nice as long as detail is not compromised. I love detail, but must not be fatiguing. Not a fan of overly laid back systems, but too much energy will get tiring I imagine. I like spacial separation very much. I love to hear the individual hits of percussion in the background that would normally be missed by low end systems, I feel it makes the music sound like it's actually being played.
 
3.) Most likely not. But, the new system would most likely be the work one.
 
4.) I have an ipod touch. I don't use IEM's, this is because I've never managed to find a pair that will stay in my left ear. It's really annoying! I use my closed back DT250/80 for trains, planes etc and a pair of PMX 680 for exercise and walking around.
 
Hope that helps. 

 

[Brooko]

Quote:

Thanks to Liam and Curra for two great explanations. I really appreciate your thoughts. It's all a lot to take in, but I'm trying.
 
Brooko, to answer your questions:
 
 
1.) All types. I know this doesn't help much, but I really do. I would say when I'm working, and this will be be the primary time I use the system, I listen to electronica, post-rock, ambient and acoustic stuff.
 
2.) I'm not a bass-head that's for sure, but the bass does have to be tight. Warm is nice as long as detail is not compromised. I love detail, but must not be fatiguing. Not a fan of overly laid back systems, but too much energy will get tiring I imagine. I like spacial separation very much. I love to hear the individual hits of percussion in the background that would normally be missed by low end systems, I feel it makes the music sound like it's actually being played.
 
3.) Most likely not. But, the new system would most likely be the work one.
 
4.) I have an ipod touch. I don't use IEM's, this is because I've never managed to find a pair that will stay in my left ear. It's really annoying! I use my closed back DT250/80 for trains, planes etc and a pair of PMX 680 for exercise and walking around.
 
Hope that helps. 

Thanks - helps a lot.  Others will have more experience with DACs and amps - mine is limited to the few systems I've heard, and what I've read.  For the cans though, I hopefully can give a little more help.  Based on your description - and the fact that you want all-rounders, but not mainly rock focused, I'd look at the DT880s or Hd600.  Both are open cans (DT880 are semi-open).  Both have a nice sound-stage IMO - without being too wide or deep.  Both need amplification - and the better the system, the more they will scale.
 
The DT880 is quite balanced with a slight emphasis on the highs and lows (not heavy emphasis).  They extend well at both extremes.  Very detailed, while at same time the bass is clearly defined and punchy.  They are reasonably flat with maybe a slight recession in the mids.  They respond really well to a tube amp - or warm solid state - which can help bring out the mids a little.  They are extremely comfortable, and can be worn for long periods.  I find the DT880 was good with most genres and handled faster paced music well.
 
The HD600 is also very balanced  (IMO more so than the DT880) - but has a slight emphasis on the mids.  Soundstage is a little smaller than the DT880, and they aren't quite as fast (just a little more laid back).  They don't extend as far as the DT880 in either bass or treble - but what they have is extremely detailed and well defined.  Comfort is excellent - and can be worn for a long time.
 
I owned  both - and preferred the HD600 - but I do listen to a lot of 'mid-centric' music.  Both cans are wonderful with acoustic music.  The HD600s are a little warmer, while the DT880 can sometimes be dryer.
 
Neither is going to be any good portable - so you'd need to keep your DT250 for travel.
 
As far as amp/dac goes - I really enjoy my NFB-12, but it is entry level - and you seem to want to go higher.  I'm actually looking to go further myself + I really want to get tubes for the HD600, so I'm also looking for a new amp/dac combo.  From what I have researched so far - the Schitt Valhalla seems to pair well with the HD600.  I'm looking to pair it with the Schiit Bifrost possibly.  Anyway - that combo (DT880 - Bifrost - Valhalla) or the other one (HD600 - Bifrost - Valhalla) would be both worth looking at, and come in at around $1000 - depending on wht you pay for the cans.
 
Hope that helped a little.  Curras idea was good as well.  I have modified Alessandro MS1is - and they are wonderful.  I've also been looking at Rhydon's Magnum drivers.  A lot of people are talking about them.  I'm not sure how they'd go in an office environment though - they are very open.

 

[Loz2103]

Thanks Brooko, another great explanation. To be honest I like the sound of the DT880 and their semi-open approach. I'll see if I can't find somewhere that will let me audition them this weekend.

 

[Uncle Erik]

I'd also recommend the HD-600 over the DT880. I had both and slightly preferred the HD-600, too. Though I like the DT880 and recommend it.

One wonderful thing about the HD-600 is that it is available used for $200 or so. That might be the best deal on the market for an excellent headphone. Headphones are the most important part of the chain except for the recording itself.

Next, I'd look for a suitable amp. Do not buy a combo DAC/amp. The reason is that a good amp is a good amp, and the technology doesn't change that much. A great headphone amp from ten years ago still is.

DACs come out with new chipsets constantly. If you have a good amp connected to an older DAC, people won't buy it. More a matter of fashion, since I don't think a DAC makes much difference. But that's how the marketplace works and you don't want to be stuck with something others won't buy or expect a huge discount on.

There are three good amps to consider. One is a new version of the classic Dynalo available for $300. It has been around a long time, a Gilmore design, no caps in the signal path, over 1W of power, clean, crisp, and neutral. Lots of people have built a DIY version (me, too) and the only criticism you'll find is thst it's "old." Yeah, but it's done right and is a better circuit than a lot of new ones.

Another great amp is the Bottlehead Crack. About $220 and $300 with the Speedball upgrade. It's a kit, but an easy build and tons of support. You can run tubes and an OTL is fine for a HD-600. Many people have built it and it's a solid amp. I loved the one I heard at CanJam.

You might want to consider the new O2. About $100 to build, though you'll have to do more work than a Crack. Still, it could be a good option.

As for a DAC, just get a used one off Audiogon for $100 or so. You can always get another and it doesn't matter that much anyway. If you're not getting static, noises, dropouts, etc., then it's about as good as it's going to get.

That leaves a bit of a budget to go.

I'd take what's left and pick up a used Rega P3/Planar 3 for $400-$500 on Audiogon.

OK, you'll go over budget to set up the deck, but it's not bad. $50-$70 will get you a nice Shure or Grado cartridge, $100 for the very good NAD PP2 phonostage, $20 for the Shure scale, and $5 for a level. But you might be able to pull it off under $1,000 if you go with a Crack or O2. That would be well worth the soldering.

So you could end up with one of the best headphones on the market, all the music on your computer, a solid tube amp, and a very good turntable with one of the best arms made.

I think you'd be quite happy with that.

(Not to lead you into temptation, but another $1,000, spent correctly, could add an excellent speaker setup to this rig. )

 

[Loz2103]

Thanks for your input Uncle Erik. I like the DIY kit route, I'll look into this more.
 
Believe me, I'd love to go vinyl also. However, the small problem that I don't own a single record combined with the feeling that a turntable won't go down very well in the office, could be a slight issue

 

[Loz2103]

Just thought I'd update people with what I finally got. I know this is an old thread now, but I thought I'd complete it by saying I finally got a used pair of Denon D5000 and a Fiio E17. I'm pretty pleased

 

[lag0a]

Its nice you have found something you like.
 
I have been studying this power, source, dac, amp, and headphones business pretty extensively and pretty much it comes down to what you can enjoy with your sound system because everything pretty much add some kind of mechanical coloring to the sound even down to how you adjust your software settings in your OS affects how your hardware operates. The thing you want to try to strive for is clean power, a great source or as I call it the "producer", pretty good dac as I call it the "mixer", a good enough headphone amp that can drive your headphones, and the least important as I see it is the headphones but you want one that gives a flat frequency sound curve I think so no frequency dominates the other ones. I prefer one that is as light as possible for long listening sessions.