[chicscantdrive]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif All the bolded headphones are well-known to be colored cans so you should've done better research than you have in getting those cans. I don't have much experience with the HD600 so I'll refrain from commenting. As for the K702, it's certainly not truly neutral as it tends to have a treble emphasis and there's also something a little off on the mids IMO. So out of all the ones that you've tried, only the K702 and HD600 can be considered neutral really. You mentioned that headphones don't matter much since they are very colored, that's probably because you picked out all the highly colored headphones to begin with. Now if you want truly neutral cans, try the K1000 and HD800.

You're criticizing me as if I even made a headset recommendation. I also explicitly stated that I did not own all these sets.

But yes, I put on the K702 when I want accuracy. But no, accuracy isn't the only thing I enjoy. But why would I ever buy more than one neutral can? It's too much like buying the same product twice.

I would never buy the K1000 because it makes you look dumb. I'll buy the HD800 when the price comes down.

 

[TheMarchingMule]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicscantdrive /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you even a musician? I grew up with a string ensemble, and I've played these instruments since grade school. The cans recommended on here distort the cello sound. They make a cello not sound like a cello. Perhaps you should spend less time listening to headphones and more time listening to actual instruments.

I would criticize you for this blatantly snobbery, but it seems as though the other members have slapped you around enough already for that. But here's my brief history of playing instruments:

1. I played the piano starting at three and throughout middle school, from classical to jazz
2. Picked up my father's clarinet and played it throughout all of middle school and the first year of high school
3. Played the alto sax for one year before switching over to tenor sax
4. Played the tenor sax in the ensemble and marching band throughout high school
5. Play in the pep band in college with my tenor sax and visit the music halls often

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicscantdrive /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're criticizing me as if I even made a headset recommendation. I also explicitly stated that I did not own all these sets. But yes, I put on the K702 when I want accuracy. But no, accuracy isn't the only thing I enjoy. But why would I ever buy more than one neutral can? It's too much like buying the same product twice. I would never buy the K1000 because it makes you look dumb. I'll buy the HD800 when the price comes down.

You said headphones that cost more than $10 don't matter because they aren't accurate. Then I said, you think that way because your comments are based on headphones that are colored. Why would you feel that I'm criticizing you? You need to relax and not be so defensive.

 

[chicscantdrive]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You said headphones that cost more than $10 don't matter because they aren't accurate. Then I said, you think that way because your comments are based on headphones that are colored. Why would you feel that I'm criticizing you? You need to relax and not be so defensive.

I said nothing of the sort. I'm not going to say anymore on the matter, because I don't feel like correcting you where you misread. But you have a good night, regardless. I'm going to bed.

 

[chicscantdrive]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMarchingMule /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would criticize you for this blatantly snobbery, but it seems as though the other members have slapped you around enough already for that. But here's my brief history of playing instruments: I played the piano starting at three and throughout middle school, from classical to jazz Picked up my father's clarinet and played it throughout all of middle school and the first year of high school Played the alto sax for one year before switching over to tenor sax Played the tenor sax in the ensemble and marching band throughout high school Play in the pep band in college with my tenor sax and visit the music halls often

People can say what they like. I have thick skin. And if what they say is correct, then I'll gladly acknowledge.

So you have a better ear in the brass and woodwinds, and I have a better ear in the strings. This gets us no where, except maybe that I know the cello better than you, but who the frick even cares? I certainly don't. But I'll gladly give you deference on your instruments of expertise.

This conversation is stupid and totally irrelevant. A person who truly loves the cello sound (or any other sound, for that matter) probably would want to hear it unaltered. I'm done on this matter.

 

[boomy3555]

Anyway,,, Back on Topic, I choose the Denon AHD5000's and AHD7000's for that particular register. The denon line is known for thier bass "feel" and I particularly like the string basses with my Denons.

 

[John Willett]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephemere /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's one of the most interesting posts I've seen for a long time. Do other instruments have similarly non-uniform patterns of radiation, or is the cello one of the "worst"?

Thank you.

Most musical instruments don't radiate all frequencies in the same direction.

I would post more pictures, but it seems the cello one is the only one on-line I can find.

The original pictures are from the book "Acoustics and the Performance of Music" by Jürgen Meyer - it's available from Amazon HERE (UK) and HERE (USA).

I highly recommend this book - it's excellent. I have the 1st edition and have just bought the 5th edition when it came out earlier this year.

Back to musical instruments............

The violin is on the left of the orchestra because, if you look at the radiation pattern, the audience hear the full range of the instrument.

Brass instruments tend to have a very wide radiation pattern at low frequencies that gradually gets more and more directional as the frequency rises, at high frequencies it's quite a narrow beam from the bell - brass instruments normally need a lot of "air" and the French horn in particular is normally recorded by reflection from a hard surface.

Woodwind (including the flute and saxophone) tend to radiate at right-angles to the body at low frequencies, radiating at star-like patterns that change as the frequency rises and comes out of the end at the highest frequencies - so the radiation patten changes by 90º when you compare the lowest frequencies to the highest.

I have some of these patterns in a PowerPoint presentation I do.

Obviously it's more important to know about the radiation patterns of musical instruments when you have to set up microphones to record them, rather than just listening to the results on headphones.

But, for instance, if someone records brass with the microphone too close to the bell the result can often be a bit nasty and sharp which good headphones can show up quite clearly.

If you *really* want to know more, send me a PM with an e-mail address and I can try and send you some of the diagrams from my PowerPoint as a pdf.

I hope this is useful.

 

[ephemere]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Willett /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...

Thank you for a thoughtful response, and thanks for the pointer to that book. I'll put it on my amazon wish list.

And apologies to the OP for hijacking your thread. What I can tell you is that I own the K501 that has been recommended several times to you so far, and I personally would much rather listen to cello (or probably anything) through my Etymotic ER-4. To my ears, the AKGs just don't resolve nearly as much information.

 

[gilency]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif My new amp for my O2s arrives tomorrow. I'm quite fond of Anner Bylsma's Bach cello suites. I'll be sure to try it out.

mmhh.... I have them with Pablo Cassals and Yo Yo Ma. I may have to listen to Bylsma...

 

[gilency]

deleted

 

[Matro5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nc8000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Very nice and interesting link, just a shame it is only 128 kb mp3

just listened to the Braid soundtrack via this link. Very cool. Will likely buy the album ( and the game, too, when it comes to PS3 ). Thanks for the tip...

 

[indydieselnut]

I'll offer what I can based on my experiences. I've played the cello for twenty years and have my undergraduate degree in cello performance. My music collection contains about 600 discs of cello music. I don't think this qualifies me to tell you what headphone to buy. Maybe it qualifies me as someone that loves the cello

I'm fascinated by John's posting of the radiation pattern of the cello only because that helps me understand something that has eluded me for so long - why recorded cello sounds so different from label to label and recording to recording. I'm not one of those guys that pays a lot of attention to who engineered the recording but I think I need to start! It will probably explain so much...

I've enjoyed cello recordings on the GS1000i and HD650 the most...for what it's worth.

I'm sure it's this way with all instruments, but cello seems to be an instrument that wants to sound very different in a live acoustic versus a recording. Recordings seem to be either overly etched and bright or too syrupy and warm - erring on one side or the other of realistic. Of course, lumping "the cello" as one unified instrument is also misleading...each instrument has its own sound. I've had the honor of playing a few famous celli like Yo-Yo Ma's Montagnana and Rostropovich's Stradivari...and heard both of those masters playing the instrument at close distance (and out in the hall). To go home and then listen to recordings of both artists/instruments from different eras/engineers/recording labels is incredibly interesting.

A similar discussion about vocal recording would fascinate me too...so much variation!

 

[Sherwood]

Thank you for that exemplary post, diesel, and for adding a unique POV to this discussion (the same extends to John Willett).

Posts like these elevate Head-Fi to a place worth contributing to, even when posts like chic's diminish it so much.

I've noticed a very striking difference between live cello performance and recorded as well -- much more so than other instruments. I'm not as intimately familiar with cello as you, but I play bass, and my wife plays cello, and I've played both in my listening room for comparison sake.

I, for one, would appreciate any recommendations of particularly faithful recordings you or John have, Diesel. Or, if you can't be that specific, even some labels you enjoy. My musical knowledge could stand to catch up to my gear knowledge in the worst way.

Thanks, all.

 

[boomana]

I, too, would be very interested in recommendations. Perhaps a thread in the music forum?

 

[John Willett]

Coming back to Diesel's post....................

The cello can sound so different on recordings because of its radiation pattern, what microphones are used, how many and where you put them.

But when you thing where a cello is placed in an orchestra in relation to the audience you will see that the audience receives only some frequencies directly and the others are by reflection; so the sound of a cello will change from hall to hall as the acoustics and reflections change.

Personally, when I'm recording I try and imagine how the audience will hear the instrument in a live situation and place the microphones accordingly.