Bad low frequency bass on AKG K702
Jul 11, 2010 at 1:14 AM Post #197 of 354


Quote:
If it's clipping, then the CANAMP is producing the same clipping. 
I don't know why, but the bass has improved on my K702s.  I think it might be a little better than the triports' now.  I'm sure my soundcard can drive the 990s, so that's no problem.  My soundcard can drive my K702s to deafening volume at half maximum, and so can the CANAMP.  They also sound VERY similar.  A ton of people say that the CANAMP matches the K701s very well, so I guess mine does too. Other people have also said that the STX matches as well.  The only things preventing me from keeping the K702s are the flapping noise of the left diaphragm, the price to performance ratio over my triports, and the fit that's painful at times.  The headband exerts a large downward force against my head, and the band has hard lumps which dig into my skull.

 

I am pretty sure you blew your K702s by driving your amp into clipping.  That flapping noise is not clipping but a blown driver.  Underpowered amps and driving them to clip is the easiest way to kill any speaker.  Problem with a Soundcard and K702s is that your Vp-p is only 5.6V which is about the most you see in a soundcard because your PSU is limited.  This is where a proper desktop amp helps you have a much higher Vp-p to prevent or reduce your chance to clip.
 
 
Jul 11, 2010 at 1:16 AM Post #198 of 354


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I think I'll be sticking with my STX for a while, it's very close to the Heed CANAMP ($450) in sound quality/driving capability.
 
Should I bother trying the AH-D2000 / DT-xx0 / HD-6x0?


Definitely not the Senns.
 
Jul 11, 2010 at 1:18 AM Post #199 of 354


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I don't care for Sennheisers. Too polite and boring to me.
 
Denons sound fairly accurate. A little sibilant. Also the Denon D7000 is still too polite for me. I want larger sound stage and more bass impact. I look forward to my Ultrasone Pro 900.
 
Beyers are very spacious sounding.The mids a bit recessed, though I was never that discerning about mids. The closed and open versions (770/880) sound surprising similar. The closed model sound just as spacious as the open model.


My HD600s are not the least bit boring, then again I'm not running them with a soundcard.
 
Jul 11, 2010 at 1:32 AM Post #201 of 354
 
Quote:
m1abrams said:




I am pretty sure you blew your K702s by driving your amp into clipping.  That flapping noise is not clipping but a blown driver.  Underpowered amps and driving them to clip is the easiest way to kill any speaker.  Problem with a Soundcard and K702s is that your Vp-p is only 5.6V which is about the most you see in a soundcard because your PSU is limited.  This is where a proper desktop amp helps you have a much higher Vp-p to prevent or reduce your chance to clip.
 

 
If I blew the drivers, wouldn't they sound different?  They still sound the same.  I read somewhere online that it might be something to do with the diaphragms trying to flex past their "baffle point" or something.


 
 
Quote:
My HD600s are not the least bit boring, then again I'm not running them with a soundcard.


Ugh.. I should just stop calling it a soundcard and just call it an amp, or pretend I'm just using the CANAMP.  They're similar enough.
 
Jul 11, 2010 at 2:13 AM Post #202 of 354
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Any recommendations from those?  I'm looking for something "fun", detailed, and with good bass extension.  Comfort and durability are also factors.  Durability as in are the parts replaceable, and will any degrade over time (like the elastic bands on the K 702s)?  I'm gentle with my headphones.


I'd say the 990s would fall into that category.  Probably the Ultrasonnes too, but I don't have much experience with them.  I'd say they're both equally tough, but that the beyers would be more comfortable.  The D2000s have plenty of bass but don't have as much detail as the DT990s, which are good themselves, but probably not as good as the 702s (don't remember clearly) and I don't know how the detail stacks up to the ultrasonnes.
 
At this point I think you should return the busted 702s (if you can), order another pair of 'phones, see If you think the canamp is worth it for them, and then decide whether to keep the canamp or not
 
Jul 11, 2010 at 4:25 AM Post #203 of 354
I think I can say something about how a blown driver sounds, and I believe your driver is blown on one side.
 
I have had pairs of defective AKG, Sennheiser, and Beyerdynamic before, and they all suffered the same defects.  First it was my first K271 Studio, it was rattling in one driver at very low bass.  Next it was Sennheiser PX100, and the latest was my Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro.  They all had rattling in one driver at very low bass notes.  Mind you, I didn't even play loud.  I just connect one of my synthesizers and play a very low bass note at a moderate volume, and they rattled.  They sounded like their driver was torn and vibrated at a low frequency.  I felt like I had really bad luck with all my headphone purchases.
 
You usually hear them work normally without any artifacts until you go down low enough in frequency, until, I think, the frequency resonates with the tear in the driver, thus creating flapping sound at a specific low frequency range.
 
Long story short, I sent them back and got them replaced.  All these models are still with me.  After the replacement, they no longer have rattles at any frequency.
 
Later on, I bought me a pair of AKG K702, and it was among the very few that I didn't have to replace (another one was Grado SR80, which I have sold later).  And its bass?  Sure, it's not in the same ballpark as my DT770 Pro, but I think it's just enough -- albeit just a little too dry sometimes.
 
Do I hear low frequencies on my K702?  Well, you bet, just not very prominent, and the closer to 20 Hz it is, the more I feel rather than hear it.  At around 20 Hz, I think I don't hear it anymore (just some very faint feeling of it), but that doesn't bother me much.  I'm used to the sound of small near field monitors (8" drivers or less), and that kind of extremely low sub-bass is not reproduced by most of these anyway.
 
To the OP, I think it's probably not a very good idea to push the volume "close to the max" to try to hear the bass.  Even though you might not hear it (either because the headphones cannot reproduce it well enough or because you simply can't hear it), the amp might have already reached its maximum potential to provide enough power to produce the bass, and is driven into clipping.  Just try listening at your normal listening volume, don't push it, and if you can't hear it, then it simply doesn't have enough bass for your need. :)
 
Also, I think it's not a very fair comparison to compare the amount of bass on your Bose with the K702.  Among the recording/mixing studio favorites like the AKG K240/271/70x, the Beyerdynamic DT100/150/250/770/880/990, the Sennheiser HD280/600/650, the Sony MDR-V6/7506/7509, the Audio Technica ATH-M50, the various Ultrasones, and a few others, the Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro and the Audio Technica ATH-M50 are probably among the bassiest of them all, yet from the frequency response graph from Headphone.com, these two still are less bassy than the two Bose models they have the graphs for.  I think that is saying something about the Bose sound signature.
 
Jul 11, 2010 at 9:40 AM Post #204 of 354


Quote:
This is what we've been trying to help you with.  Sufficient amping is about more than just volume.  I don't think anyone has been arguing that the Asus is a bad sounding amplifier and that the components inside are garbage.  In fact, from the look of it, it should have a solid, quality sound as long as it's avoiding that nasty internal computer electrical noise, and driving a load it was designed to handle.  
 
Weak amps sometimes give sufficient volume, but whether or not it can make the headphones sound good at a given volume is another question entirely.
 
Take my DT150 for example.  It's considered relatively easy to drive for a 250 ohm headphone, and it sounds good out of most amps.  Plugging it directly into my portable player, it can be driven to an uncomfortably loud level, but it doesn't really sound like they sound plugged into an actual amp.  The portable player can be pushed to dish out that volume, but the sound suffers when it happens.  What does it sound like?  Well, plasticky in comparison, with diminished bass response, more distant mids, and a less authoritative soundstage.
 
Which sounds to those of us who have had this experience with insufficient amping like what you're complaining about with your notoriously hard to drive AKGs.
 
Any amp can do volume.  Not any amp can do quality sound into a 600ohm load at volume.

This is exactly the problem. I used to run the 701s out of my integrated amp's headphone out. Thus far, it'd been the best headphone amp I had, and controlled my Audio Technicas far better than my soundcard had. But while I could turn it up loud enough with the 701s to make my ears bleed without distorting, the whole setup really lacked dynamics. The music may have been loud, but it was flat. I took a punt and added a good SS headphone amp. It worked wonders. The music was far more dynamic and I got real slam from the bass that I wasn't getting before.
 
+1 to sounds like you're sending your amp into clipping. +1 to that's the best way to kill a dynamic driver.
 
[edit] Hadn't gotten to the part where you'd hooked up the CANAMP. But it sounds like the damage is already done.
 
 
Jul 11, 2010 at 11:27 AM Post #205 of 354
No that is exactly what a blown driver sounds like.  And the fact that you were overdriving the amp in your soundcard with a low freq. sine wave is what killed it.  Short of just hooking up a battery to the voice coil you really could not make a more efficient way to kill a driver.
 
Your soundcard is a very good soundcard no doubt about it, it also would compete very well with most if not all portable amps on the market, but it is still limited by the constraint that it is a soundcard with its power coming from a single 12V rail.  That is why it can only have a Vp-p of 5.6V which btw is the most you could EVER expect from a soundcard powered by a PC PSU. (actually if they used a DC boost converter you could go higher but that usually is not a good idea for quality and cost).  Also note your soundcards amp also has to deal with current limits due to the size constraints it must meet.  Please understand the amps job is NOT just about volume, driving headphones to ear peircing levels is not difficult, doing that without distorting is very difficult.  Many amps can also handle the highs easily to any headphone but providing enough power to move the lows becomes very difficult and is why many think the K702 have no bass.  I hear plenty of bass out of my K702 mated with an MMM.
 
If you want to play with headphones like the K702 or Senns 650 etc you really need to invest in a desktop amp such as that CANAMP you have.  If you do not want a desktop amp that is fine too, but I would not recommend those headphones to you since they would not sound as good as other headphones built with lower power requirements in mind.
 

 
Quote:
 
 
If I blew the drivers, wouldn't they sound different?  They still sound the same.  I read somewhere online that it might be something to do with the diaphragms trying to flex past their "baffle point" or something.


 
 

Ugh.. I should just stop calling it a soundcard and just call it an amp, or pretend I'm just using the CANAMP.  They're similar enough.



 
Jul 11, 2010 at 1:49 PM Post #206 of 354
It's possible he did that, my K701 never had ringing problems, on the other hand, I think that saying a sound card does not have enough power by nature is false.
 
I quote:
PCI Express 1 and 2 deliver 75 watts through the slot itself. Since that won’t even power a mid-range [video] card, extra power is drawn directly from the computer’s power supply unit.

 
Whether they can filter it enough is another question, bu a PCI-E card, provided it's well designed has plenty of power. I'd love to see the THD vs frequency vs power chart of the STX though, including of the out of the headamp section.
 
Quote:
No that is exactly what a blown driver sounds like.  And the fact that you were overdriving the amp in your soundcard with a low freq. sine wave is what killed it.  Short of just hooking up a battery to the voice coil you really could not make a more efficient way to kill a driver.
 
Your soundcard is a very good soundcard no doubt about it, it also would compete very well with most if not all portable amps on the market, but it is still limited by the constraint that it is a soundcard with its power coming from a single 12V rail.  That is why it can only have a Vp-p of 5.6V which btw is the most you could EVER expect from a soundcard powered by a PC PSU. (actually if they used a DC boost converter you could go higher but that usually is not a good idea for quality and cost).  Also note your soundcards amp also has to deal with current limits due to the size constraints it must meet.  Please understand the amps job is NOT just about volume, driving headphones to ear peircing levels is not difficult, doing that without distorting is very difficult.  Many amps can also handle the highs easily to any headphone but providing enough power to move the lows becomes very difficult and is why many think the K702 have no bass.  I hear plenty of bass out of my K702 mated with an MMM.
 
If you want to play with headphones like the K702 or Senns 650 etc you really need to invest in a desktop amp such as that CANAMP you have.  If you do not want a desktop amp that is fine too, but I would not recommend those headphones to you since they would not sound as good as other headphones built with lower power requirements in mind.
 

 

 



 
Jul 11, 2010 at 3:33 PM Post #207 of 354
Here's the test report again: http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/Audio_Card/Xonar_Essence_STX/e4253_Xonar_Essence_STX_Audio_Test_Report.pdf
 
It doesn't have THD vs. power though.
 
Even with the CANAMP, it can't produce audible sound below 30Hz with amplification.  Both the CANAMP and STX produce audible 20Hz at around the same high amplification, and the same flapping noise at 15Hz at higher amplification.
 
Jul 11, 2010 at 3:47 PM Post #208 of 354
That test report is meaniless for how it operates as an AMP driving speakers.  That is a unloaded line out test, if you do not understand what this means then I suggest you either educate yourself or stop looking at specs.
 
As for PC having enough power, I am not saying that the PC PSU can not provide enough wattage.  What it does not have is enough VOLTAGE big difference.
 
Quote:
Here's the test report again: http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/Audio_Card/Xonar_Essence_STX/e4253_Xonar_Essence_STX_Audio_Test_Report.pdf
 
It doesn't have THD vs. power though.
 
Even with the CANAMP, it can't produce audible sound below 30Hz with amplification.  Both the CANAMP and STX produce audible 20Hz at around the same high amplification, and the same flapping noise at 15Hz at higher amplification.



 
Jul 11, 2010 at 4:19 PM Post #209 of 354
It definitely seems to since my Heed CANAMP sounds very similar.
 
Quote:
That test report is meaniless for how it operates as an AMP driving speakers.  That is a unloaded line out test, if you do not understand what this means then I suggest you either educate yourself or stop looking at specs.
 
As for PC having enough power, I am not saying that the PC PSU can not provide enough wattage.  What it does not have is enough VOLTAGE big difference.
 

 



 
Jul 11, 2010 at 4:33 PM Post #210 of 354
I think reports on Canamp are misleading as are most reviews here. I get very defined low end rumble from my woo audio 6 se. I even tried mach3bass eq boost from my cowon to the woo; the akgs THUMP. They dont rattle so there maybe a problem. I also doubt a canamp or a soundcard could power the akg as well as a full sized desktop amp with a well designed power supply
 

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