[eric65]

I never said this ("the HD-800 beat the SR-009"); you misunderstood me.
 
The perception of sound is different (not better or worse, just different) according to the place in the concert hall (especially the level of treble and bass, as well as the level of detail and accuracy of the soundstage) ; it is the same for these three referred headphones : HD800 (in OTL mode, or tranformer mode, for the amp) ; SR-009 ; LCD-X (or LCD-3F)).

 

[astrostar59]

Fair enough. But I have heard the HD800 and it is NO WHERE NEAR the 009s in terms of anything
 
1. Bass power and detail / texture
2. Treble clarity and smoothness
3. Realism of instruments
4. Realism of vocals
5. Lack of fatigue
6. Lack of signature i.e. plays what is there for better or worse
7. Scales better with higher end gear.
 
'possibly' the HD800 has a kind of synthetic or false soundstage width, which some may like.
The rest is rather lame IMO. And the insane edgy treble energy - it's like cats sliding down a tin roof....
 
I would say IMO the Verto, though you say works well with the HD800
needs an extra transformer to talk to a Stat. This is loosing quality and is another 
stage or layer, another component.
 
I would suggest instead of banging on about the verto like you are selling them as a shop,
and get hold of a decent none Stax amp, like a KGSShv or BHSE or WOO WEE. Then see what
you find. Your obsessive push and 'advice' is based on limited knowledge and biased towards
one amp - the Verto.....

 

[eric65]

The Verto is not an amplifier, just a box of impedance transformer (and voltage transformer) (+ Stax bias generator 580 VDC), such as the Woo-Wee I owned and listened to on my amp RKV.
The Verto box is most transparent (with RKV amp) than the Woo Wee (with the same RKV amp).
The voltage amplification ratio of the Verto box (1: 5.9) is lower than that of the Woo Wee (1:50); it is better for listening to a Stax headphone at high power for the extension of the treble.

Otherwise, the 009 is more fine, in treble, that the HD-800 that is otherwise (often) too pushy in this register (treble). 
Bass of the SR-009 are a bit stronger and more textured than the HD-800. Both headphones are very good ; however, one (the HD-800) is more oriented towards listening monitor type; the other (the SR-009) is more refined and pleasant to hear, generally.

On dark and opaque recordings, the HD-800 has something to say to enlighten and unravel the sound.
The SR-009 simply reproduces with good fidelity this recording dark and opaque with a sound dark and opaque; it does not make it brighter.

 

[David1961]

  Good Evening,
 
Choose your place in concert,
 
Also choose your headphone.
 
On the stage, facing the musician: HD-800 (OTL mode) (listens very clear, perhaps bright, very detailed and very spatial)
First row : HD-800 (transformer mode) (listens a little less clear and spatial, compared to OTL mode, but more natural and full)
Fourth row: Stax SR-009 (listens more gentle and natural than previous with less treble and a little more bass, highly readable registers)
In the ten-twelfth row: Audeze LCD-X (or LCD 3f located further back) (listens more full and more carnal than previous, but less clear (more sifted), with more bass and less treble)
 

 

 
I've never heard the LCD-X or LCD-3, and I've only heard the HD-800 for a short time with the HDVD-800, but I listen to my 009/BHSE often.
If I was placing the 009 and HD-800 in that concert hall from using the amps I've mentioned, I'd put the 009 on the front seat where the HD-800 is, and the HD-800 because of the soundstage I'd put on the back seat where the LCD-X is.

 

[realmassy]

Good Evening,

Choose your place in concert,

Also choose your headphone.

On the stage, facing the musician: HD-800 (OTL mode) (listens very clear, perhaps bright, very detailed and very spatial)
First row : HD-800 (transformer mode) (listens a little less clear and spatial, compared to OTL mode, but more natural and full)
Fourth row: Stax SR-009 (listens more gentle and natural than previous with less treble and a little more bass, highly readable registers)
In the ten-twelfth row: Audeze LCD-X (or LCD 3f located further back) (listens more full and more carnal than previous, but less clear (more sifted), with more bass and less treble)








Combo RKV-Verto + HD-800 + LCD-X + SR-009
Luminare amp (soon)
LCD-3F (soon)

Eric

Nice post and nice analogy Eric. I've heard the HD800 with a full Woo Audio WA5 and they were wonderful, completely different from other amps I heard. The midrange was smooth and very very liquid. With that setup (and a McIntosh CDPlayer) the HD800 were not sounding like a front row seat, at all. And they were not bright either.

Both the headphones scale very well, the 009 with the Hex, for example, sounds very delicate and possibly a bit 'distant', at least compared with other setup I heard. I'm sure they would play even better with a TotalDac
But it's all about personal preferences, you can tune these two headphones to your taste and that's even easier with a tube amp: some people prefer a first row seat, or even being between the players, I personally like seating on the 10th row in a concert hall and even further/higher in a theatre.

 

[eric65]

How to explain the operation of this amplifier?

Electronics engineers; help!
 

http://www.audiovalve.info/to/luminare.php
 
For my understanding of what I read and what I have experienced (measurement of the gain with box Verto), I make the following assumptions ; please, do not hesitate to correct me.
 
Luminare amp : three mode of operation:
Mode1 (red) "Low Impedance"
Mode2 (blue) "OTL"
Mode3 (yellow) "Stax"
 
Mode2 (blue) "OTL" : use with only dynamic headphone (XLR/jack)
Gain (OTL mode) (blue): 32 dB
For orthodynamics or dynamics headphones with impedance > 45 Ohms, with a sensitivity> 95 dB / 1 Vrms (Abyss and HE-6 headphones can be used in this mode (blue) with a power> 1000 mW on this load > 45 Ohms).
 
Mode1 (red) "Low impedance"
A: For orthodynamics or dynamics headphones with very low impedance (> 3 Ohms)
Estimated gain in this mode (red): 32-15.5 dB = 16.5 dB (if use 6:1 step-down transformer) (NB bis : differential gain between mode2 (bue) and mode1 (red) for operation dynamic headphone is estimated at +15.5 dB)
B: For Stax headphones
Estimated gain in this mode (red): 32 + 2.5 (auto gain Stax) + 9.5 dB = 44 dB (if use 1:3 step-up transformer) (max Vpp : 850 or 300 Vrms) (NB : differential gain between mode1 (red) and mode3 (yellow) for operation stax headphone is estimated at -6 dB)
 
Mode3 (yellow) "Stax"
A: For Stax headphones
Estimated gain in this mode (yellow) : 32 + 2.5 (auto gain Stax) + 15.5 dB = +50 dB (if use 1:5.9 step-up transformer) (max Vpp : 1700 or 600 Vrms)
B: For orthodynamics or dynamics headphones with low to medium impedance.
Estimated gain in this mode (yellow) : 32-9.5 dB = 22.5 dB (if use 3:1 step-down transformer) (NB : differential gain between mode3 (yellow) and mode1 (red) for operation dynamic Headphone is estimated at +6 dB) (NB bis : differential gain between mode3 (yellow) and mode2 (blue) for operation dynamic Headphone is estimated at -9.5 dB)

 

[wink]

 A: For orthodynamics or dynamics headphones with very low impedance (> 3 Ohms)

Very low impedance greater than 3 Ohms.? Sounds funny.
 
Usually low impedance is from 8 Ohms to 32 Ohms.
High impedance from 50 Ohms up to 600 Ohms.
 
btw  > 3 Ohms means greater than 3 Ohms
       < 3 Ohms means less than 3 Ohms.
 
Perhaps it should be < 32 Ohms. (Less than 32 Ohms)

 

[eric65]

 
Mode1 (red) "Low impedance"
A: For orthodynamics or dynamics headphones with very low impedance (> 3 Ohms)
 

 
Yes (in relative term for the word "low"), comparing to the 145000 Ohms Impedance of the SR-009 Stax headphone.

Mode1 (red) "Low Impedance" can be use to a load between 3 Ohms (lower limit) and 300 Ohms with a orthodynamic or electrodynamic headphone.
 
Mode2 (blue) "OTL" can be use to a load between 45 Ohms and 2000 Ohms (with a orthodynamic or electrodynamic headphone with sensitivity > 95 dB / 1 Vrms)

 

[eric65]

Supposition:
 
A: operation with a orthodynamic or a electrodynamic headphone:
 
Mode1 (red) "Low Impedance" (with step-down 6:1 transformer ?): can be use to a load between 3 Ohms (lower limit) and 300 Ohms with a orthodynamic or electrodynamic headphone.
 
Mode3 (yellow) "Medium Impedance" (with step-down 3:1 transformer ?): can be use to a load between 12 Ohms (lower limit) and 1200 Ohms with a orthodynamic or electrodynamic headphone.
(NB : mode3 (yellow): 6 dB more than the mode1 (red))
 
Mode2 (blue) "OTL" (no transformer): can be use to a load between 45 Ohms and 2000 Ohms (with a orthodynamic or electrodynamic headphone with sensitivity > 95 dB / 1 Vrms)
(NB : mode2 (blue): 9.5 dB more than the mode3 (yellow))
 
 
B: operation with a electrostatic (Stax) headphone:
 
Mode3 (yellow) "Stax" (with step-up 1:5.9 or 1:6 transformer ?): 1700 Vpp max (600 Vrms)
 
Mode1 (red) "Low Impedance Stax ?" (with step-up 1:3 transformer ?): 850 Vpp max (300 Vrms)
(NB : mode1 (red): 6 dB less than the mode3 (yellow))
 
 
 

 

[eric65]

SUPPOSITION:
 
Quote:

  How to explain the operation of this amplifier?

Electronics engineers; help!
 

http://www.audiovalve.info/to/luminare.php
 
For my understanding of what I read and what I have experienced (measurement of the gain with box Verto), I make the following assumptions ; please, do not hesitate to correct me.
 
Luminare amp : three mode of operation:
Mode1 (red) "Low Impedance"
Mode2 (blue) "OTL"
Mode3 (yellow) "Stax"
 
Mode2 (blue) "OTL" : use with only dynamic headphone (XLR/jack)
Gain (OTL mode) (blue): 32 dB
For orthodynamics or dynamics headphones with impedance > 45 Ohms, with a sensitivity> 95 dB / 1 Vrms (Abyss and HE-6 headphones can be used in this mode (blue) with a power> 1000 mW on this load > 45 Ohms).
 
Mode1 (red) "Low impedance"
A: For orthodynamics or dynamics headphones with very low impedance (> 3 Ohms)
Estimated gain in this mode (red): 32-15.5 dB = 16.5 dB (if use 6:1 step-down transformer) (NB bis : differential gain between mode2 (bue) and mode1 (red) for operation dynamic headphone is estimated at +15.5 dB)
B: For Stax headphones
Estimated gain in this mode (red): 32 + 2.5 (auto gain Stax) + 9.5 dB = 44 dB (if use 1:3 step-up transformer) (max Vpp : 850 or 300 Vrms) (NB : differential gain between mode1 (red) and mode3 (yellow) for operation stax headphone is estimated at -6 dB)
 
Mode3 (yellow) "Stax"
A: For Stax headphones
Estimated gain in this mode (yellow) : 32 + 2.5 (auto gain Stax) + 15.5 dB = +50 dB (if use 1:5.9 step-up transformer) (max Vpp : 1700 or 600 Vrms)
B: For orthodynamics or dynamics headphones with low to medium impedance.
Estimated gain in this mode (yellow) : 32-9.5 dB = 22.5 dB (if use 3:1 step-down transformer) (NB : differential gain between mode3 (yellow) and mode1 (red) for operation dynamic Headphone is estimated at +6 dB) (NB bis : differential gain between mode3 (yellow) and mode2 (blue) for operation dynamic Headphone is estimated at -9.5 dB)

 
EXPLANATION (and correction) (by Mr. Becker):
 
gain overview :
Mode:  Low-Imp   signal on the black headphone jacks +16.5 dB /  and STAX connector 32 dB + 6 dB  (galvanic coupled sym. balanced complementary output STAX connector signal)  +38 dB
Mode:  OTL          +32 dB ( amps gain only, step - up transformer less )
Mode:  STAX        +50 dB ( OTL 32 dB, + 2.5 dB auto amp gain, +15.5 dB galvanic coupled balancend step up tranformer ratio 1:6) (+23 dB on all black headphone jacks)
 
http://www.audiovalve.info/to/luminare.php
 
 
 
PS: I deduce (with the corrections of M. Becker) some very interesting elements following:
 
A: operation with a orthodynamic or a electrodynamic headphone:
 
Mode1 (red) "Low Impedance" (with step-down 6:1 transformer): can be use to a load between 3 Ohms (lower limit) and 300 Ohms with a orthodynamic or electrodynamic headphone.
 
Mode3 (yellow) "Medium Impedance" (with step-down 3:1 transformer): can be use to a load between 12 Ohms (lower limit) and 1200 Ohms with a orthodynamic or electrodynamic headphone.
(NB : mode3 (yellow): 6 or 6.5 dB more than the mode1 (red))
 
Mode2 (blue) "OTL" (no transformer): can be use to a load between 45 Ohms and 2000 Ohms (with a orthodynamic or electrodynamic headphone with sensitivity > 95 dB / 1 Vrms)
(NB : mode2 (blue): 9 or 9.5 dB more than the mode3 (yellow))
 
 
B: operation with a electrostatic (Stax) headphone:
 
Mode3 (yellow) "Stax" (with low step-up 1:6 transformer): 1700 Vpp max (600 Vrms)
 
Mode1 (red) "Low Impedance Stax ?" (with only very low step-up 1:2 transformer): 570 Vpp max (200 Vrms)
(NB : mode1 (red): 12 dB less than the mode3 (yellow)).
 
 
EDIT: for a recording to a "high average sound level", not too dynamic and imprecise and/or with a lack of clarity (record slightly compressed?) the mode 1 (red) Stax with its very low ratio of voltage amplification of transformers (1:2) and maximum clarity, should suit well.
For a recording to a "low average sound level" and wide dynamic (uncompressed recording),  the mode 3 (yellow) Stax with its greater ratio of the transformer voltage amplification (1:6) would be more suitable for have the full sound amplitude.
For use with a Stax SR-009 headphones, euphony should be higher in mode 3 (yellow) (transformer 1:6); the clarity and precision should be even higher in mode 1 (red) (transformer 1:2), but with a SPL limited to a maximum of 107 dB in mode 1 (red) (against 116-117 dB in mode 3 (yellow)).

 

[eric65]

Hello,
 
I have several questions to ask to Dr. Gilmore (or any other person competent in Electronics)
 
For you, using a source of very high level (Dac MSB / TotalDac / Audiomat) with RCA output 2.8 Vrms, and according to the specifications given by Dr. Becker for his Luminare.
What is the best mode to use for the amplifier Luminare for the following three headphones: RED, BLUE or YELLOW?

A: with the Audeze LCD 3F (Impedance: 110 Ohm; sensitivity: 102.5 dB / 1 Vrms)
B: with the Sennheiser HD800 (Impedance: 300 or 360 Ohms; sensitivity: 102,5 dB / 1 Vrms)
C: with the Stax SR-009 (Impedance: 145 000 Ohms; sensitivity: 61 dB / 1 Vrms)
 
Subsidiary question: and what limit sound pressure (in dB SPL) following the mode used? (for the source used).
 
Thank you for your appreciation .
 
Eric

 

[arnaud]

 

[eric65]

 
Is your age?

 or the number of children you gonna have?
 or the number of months it takes to wait for a BHSE?
 or the post 42nd on this thread ?
 
Mystery ...
 
Happy holidays New Year to you and your relatives, Arnaud.

 
Eric
 
 
PS: do not confuse The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything (or to the Ultimate Amplifier for drive the greatest Headphone)  with the Answer of the Universal Amplifier able to drive both 3 Ohms and 145 000 Ohms headphone.
 
The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything is actually the number "42". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrases_from_The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy
The Answer to the Universal Amplifier able to drive both 3 Ohms and 145 000 Ohms headphone is the word "Luminare"

http://www.audiovalve.info/to/luminare.php

 

[arnaud]

   
Is your age?

 or the number of children you gonna have?
 or the number of months it takes to wait for a BHSE?
 or the post 42nd on this thread ?
 
Mystery ...
 
Happy holidays New Year to you and your relatives, Arnaud.

 
Eric
 
 
PS: do not confuse The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything (or to the Ultimate Amplifier for drive the greatest Headphone)  with the Answer of the Universal Amplifier able to drive both 3 Ohms and 145 000 Ohms headphone.
 
The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything is actually the number "42". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrases_from_The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy
The Answer to the Universal Amplifier able to drive both 3 Ohms and 145 000 Ohms headphone is the word "Luminare"

http://www.audiovalve.info/to/luminare.php

Happy holidays to you Eric and glad you figured out the answer to the universe

 

[eric65]

Thank Arnaud
 
42 might be excessive for the number of your children; 2 (mine) or 3 (yours) already bring much happiness.