[Hachiko270296]

I'm not really a fan of closed headphones for vocals. I'm very sensitive to how voices sound and I don't here any air or breathiness to the voices it's all very warm and the micro detail is really lacking. They remind of of how the D5000 did voices but much warmer.

I know a lot of people say ears are different but that's not really true if we are talking about normal ears. IEMs I think can sound different as placement is important more than full size headphones. There's no way anyone with healthy ears will here more air in the mids than the HE-500, never going to happen unless they are faulty!

 

[kman1211]

I'm not really a fan of closed headphones for vocals. I'm very sensitive to how voices sound and I don't here any air or breathiness to the voices it's all very warm and the micro detail is really lacking. They remind of of how the D5000 did voices but much warmer.

I know a lot of people say ears are different but that's not really true if we are talking about normal ears. IEMs I think can sound different as placement is important more than full size headphones. There's no way anyone with healthy ears will here more air in the mids than the HE-500, never going to happen unless they are faulty!

Sounds like you simply have issues with closed-back headphones. I'm very sensitive to vocals as well. I actually prefer a good closed-back for vocals over open-backs, I often find them cleaner sounding with blacker backgrounds. I found good closed-backs to actually sound more akin to what real life vocals sound like to me. I found many open-backs add what I refer to as an almost artificial airiness/sparkle(rather more of an exaggerated somewhat artificial sounding airiness to vocals and often adds what I consider false and/or exaggerated micro-detail) to the sound that often detracts from a black background and doesn't reflect well on how vocals actually sound like to me. To me the Nighthawks take away all the unnecessary fuzz around the vocal image so to speak and allows you to hear vocals as they really are and to be able to hear the true airiness, detail, and the 3 dimensional glory of the vocals.

Maybe, but with headphones differences in ears are brought more to light. There is nothing faulty with my ears and many other people's ears. You're making assumptions on that.

 

[Hachiko270296]

That's true for some open backs are they are exaggerated in the treble and uppers. That gives some vocals an artificial timbre, like the AKGs. Headphones like the HD650 or LCD-2 pre fazor do not exaggerate any of the FR. Closed headphones sound more constricted and artificial in the voices compared to a good open back like the 650. The K712 example was made warmer than previous AKG's so they boosted the upper mids even more which gives vocals a bit of a shouty tone, this can be seen in graphs and is also audible pretty obviously; some can deal with it others can't. H


Closed backs will never be able to sound natural because of its construction, at the same time most open backs like the current LCD-2 or the crappy Ether headphones boost the uppers for even more false detail and spatial presentation which makes things sound unnatural.

Everything said, if the NH was open, no doubt it would sound much better and most complaints would be gone. Things like air, vocals shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of bass.

 

[kman1211]

That's true for some open backs are they are exaggerated in the treble and uppers. That gives some vocals an artificial timbre, like the AKGs. Headphones like the HD650 or LCD-2 pre fazor do not exaggerate any of the FR. Closed headphones sound more constricted and artificial in the voices compared to a good open back like the 650. The K712 example was made warmer than previous AKG's so they boosted the upper mids even more which gives vocals a bit of a shouty tone, this can be seen in graphs and is also audible pretty obviously; some can deal with it others can't. H


Closed backs will never be able to sound natural because of its construction, at the same time most open backs like the current LCD-2 or the crappy Ether headphones boost the uppers for even more false detail and spatial presentation which makes things sound unnatural.

Everything said, if the NH was open, no doubt it would sound much better and most complaints would be gone. Things like air, vocals shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of bass.

I found the HD 650 to sound a bit artificial and a bit lacking depth and space around the vocals compared to the Nighthawks and the DT 150. I never got the impression I was listening to the real thing on the HD 650 like with the Nighthawks and to a lesser degree the DT 150. I've always thought vocals was one of the HD 650's weakest points as well as it's imaging. I know AKGs have problems with shouty vocals due to their boosted upper mid-ranges, it's always been my main complaint about them. I found too many headphones have exaggerated upper ranges. My problem with the HD 650 vocals wasn't airiness or their tonality, but rather they lacked some definition and depth making them sound a bit too flat and soft.
 
Honestly neither will sound quite right compared to good speakers. But honestly after many years, I came to the conclusion headphones that are more closed are more true given they are designed well. The older LCD-2 honestly sounds better to me than the newer one to me.
 
I would think a fully open-back Nighthawk would honestly sound worse personally. I often found what is referred to as air shouldn't necessarily even be there to begin with, rather a black background, space around sounds(what I consider to be true air, not that weird fuzz/sparkle effect many refer to as air), and dimensionality are accurate.

 

[Hachiko270296]

That would come down to your gear to be honest with the HD650. The Nighthawk is also sensitive to gear but the HD650 more so I find.

I agree with false air in a lot of headphones. The Mrspeakers Ether which honestly, is a load of crap has false air and just exaggerated areas it really shouldn't to sound natural.

The NH just has a mid bass exaggerated while the treble extends nicely to the end. The closed design doesn't help the mid bass hump and gives them no place to escape so it lingers creating a more.. Muddy sound as people describe but I personally hear it as s fault of the closed design. If you open the Nighthawk the mid bass will go down a bit, the bass will drop off but you will have a more even response. I'm tempted to mod mine to prove this theory, I'm certain of it.

The HD650 is what I expect the Nighthawk to sound like if it was open. The difference is the HD650, I believe is the most under driven headphone out there. The people that do drive if currently don't have any of these faults. Another problem is no one is willing to buy the equipment needed just for the HD650 alone.

 

[piaudio]

  I found the HD 650 to sound a bit artificial and a bit lacking depth and space around the vocals compared to the Nighthawks and the DT 150. I never got the impression I was listening to the real thing on the HD 650 like with the Nighthawks and to a lesser degree the DT 150. I've always thought vocals was one of the HD 650's weakest points as well as it's imaging. I know AKGs have problems with shouty vocals due to their boosted upper mid-ranges, it's always been my main complaint about them. I found too many headphones have exaggerated upper ranges. My problem with the HD 650 vocals wasn't airiness or their tonality, but rather they lacked some definition and depth making them sound a bit too flat and soft.
 
Honestly neither will sound quite right compared to good speakers. But honestly after many years, I came to the conclusion headphones that are more closed are more true given they are designed well. The older LCD-2 honestly sounds better to me than the newer one to me.
 
I would think a fully open-back Nighthawk would honestly sound worse personally. I often found what is referred to as air shouldn't necessarily even be there to begin with, rather a black background, space around sounds(what I consider to be true air, not that weird fuzz/sparkle effect many refer to as air), and dimensionality are accurate.

 
What headphone amp was you listened HD650 with?

 

[teofilrocks]

The HD650 is what I expect the Nighthawk to sound like if it was open. The difference is the HD650, I believe is the most under driven headphone out there. The people that do drive if currently don't have any of these faults. Another problem is no one is willing to buy the equipment needed just for the HD650 alone.

 
Sorry for the off-topic, but as an HD650 owner I'm wondering if you could expand on that. What do you think is needed? Mostly a certain power requirement? As an example, I just got an Audio-gd (who are generally considered as making quite neutral gear) NFB-3AMP, which puts out 400mW @ 300ohms, and I don't think they sound under-driven.

 

[yage]

  I found the HD 650 to sound a bit artificial and a bit lacking depth and space around the vocals compared to the Nighthawks and the DT 150. I never got the impression I was listening to the real thing on the HD 650 like with the Nighthawks and to a lesser degree the DT 150. I've always thought vocals was one of the HD 650's weakest points as well as it's imaging. I know AKGs have problems with shouty vocals due to their boosted upper mid-ranges, it's always been my main complaint about them. I found too many headphones have exaggerated upper ranges. My problem with the HD 650 vocals wasn't airiness or their tonality, but rather they lacked some definition and depth making them sound a bit too flat and soft.
 
Honestly neither will sound quite right compared to good speakers. But honestly after many years, I came to the conclusion headphones that are more closed are more true given they are designed well. The older LCD-2 honestly sounds better to me than the newer one to me.
 
I would think a fully open-back Nighthawk would honestly sound worse personally. I often found what is referred to as air shouldn't necessarily even be there to begin with, rather a black background, space around sounds(what I consider to be true air, not that weird fuzz/sparkle effect many refer to as air), and dimensionality are accurate.

 
Wow. That's an interesting take. I would go so far as to say that vocals on the NH are slightly colored due to the semi-open design, but then again my preference is for open-back headphones (though I'm not too enamored of the Audeze house sound either). I think @Hachiko270296 is right on the mark with the midbass performance on the NH and I agree that it would've been better if AQ went with a fully open-back design. Instead it seems they tried to have the best of both worlds with the end result mostly a compromise of something that could've been truly great.

 

[kman1211]

That would come down to your gear to be honest with the HD650. The Nighthawk is also sensitive to gear but the HD650 more so I find.

I agree with false air in a lot of headphones. The Mrspeakers Ether which honestly, is a load of crap has false air and just exaggerated areas it really shouldn't to sound natural.

The NH just has a mid bass exaggerated while the treble extends nicely to the end. The closed design doesn't help the mid bass hump and gives them no place to escape so it lingers creating a more.. Muddy sound as people describe but I personally hear it as s fault of the closed design. If you open the Nighthawk the mid bass will go down a bit, the bass will drop off but you will have a more even response. I'm tempted to mod mine to prove this theory, I'm certain of it.

The HD650 is what I expect the Nighthawk to sound like if it was open. The difference is the HD650, I believe is the most under driven headphone out there. The people that do drive if currently don't have any of these faults. Another problem is no one is willing to buy the equipment needed just for the HD650 alone.

I found it the opposite, but both are very sensitive to the gear. The HD 650 is one of my favorite open-backs but I have always felt mixed about it's somewhat soft sound, sometimes I love it and other times I don't.
 
The false air is a big problem with headphones. I didn't like the Ether much either.
 
I guess I can handle a lot of bass without issue could be it. They are definitely strong in the bass, I don't find it too much though. I think it comes down to whether you find the bass overpowering or not and I can definitely see some people finding it to be a bit too much.
 
The HD 650's weren't underdriven and I was comparing them based on my past system and my friends systems to get a get idea of how they both change in regards to amplification. A lot of people don't properly amp the HD 650 I agree with. I am familiar with how they sound properly amped around a system focused exclusively on them. 

   
What headphone amp was you listened HD650 with?

I've listened to it on numerous amps,many being top-tier amps, the Lyr 2(being my own amp), but also the Eddie Current Balancing Act, Leben CS600, Violectric V281, Woo Audio WA5, Bottlehead Crack, and a few other amps I didn't spend much time with. I thought the HD 650 sounded amazing on many of these amps, I just don't think it's as good as it's made out to be though and don't quite view it as a summit-fi headphone(though many summit-fi headphones do have tuning issues).  

 

[kman1211]

   
Wow. That's an interesting take. I would go so far as to say that vocals on the NH are slightly colored due to the semi-open design, but then again my preference is for open-back headphones (though I'm not too enamored of the Audeze house sound either). I think @Hachiko270296 is right on the mark with the midbass performance on the NH and I agree that it would've been better if AQ went with a fully open-back design. Instead it seems they tried to have the best of both worlds with the end result mostly a compromise of something that could've been truly great.

The bass does seem to create a lot of mixed impressions for sure on the NH, seems to be a love or hate thing. I don't find the bass too much, but it's clear many find it has a bit too much bass and warmth from the mid and upper-bass. I'm personally glad they went with semi-open on it's design, though it's more semi-closed since it's isolation is more akin to a closed-back.

 

[SearchOfSub]

HD650 good with resolution and clarity only. That is their thing with HD line. "High definition".

 

[piaudio]

  I found it the opposite, but both are very sensitive to the gear. The HD 650 is one of my favorite open-backs but I have always felt mixed about it's somewhat soft sound, sometimes I love it and other times I don't.
 
The false air is a big problem with headphones. I didn't like the Ether much either.
 
I guess I can handle a lot of bass without issue could be it. They are definitely strong in the bass, I don't find it too much though. I think it comes down to whether you find the bass overpowering or not and I can definitely see some people finding it to be a bit too much.
 
The HD 650's weren't underdriven and I was comparing them based on my past system and my friends systems to get a get idea of how they both change in regards to amplification. A lot of people don't properly amp the HD 650 I agree with. I am familiar with how they sound properly amped around a system focused exclusively on them. 
I've listened to it on numerous amps,many being top-tier amps, the Lyr 2(being my own amp), but also the Eddie Current Balancing Act, Leben CS600, Violectric V281, Woo Audio WA5, Bottlehead Crack, and a few other amps I didn't spend much time with. I thought the HD 650 sounded amazing on many of these amps, I just don't think it's as good as it's made out to be though and don't quite view it as a summit-fi headphone(though many summit-fi headphones do have tuning issues).  

 
I sticking to Aune X1s with DT150 and waiting for other headphones and X00 to be arrive, I hope HD 650 can be sound great on this one.

 

[SearchOfSub]

I found the HD 650 to sound a bit artificial and a bit lacking depth and space around the vocals compared to the Nighthawks and the DT 150. I never got the impression I was listening to the real thing on the HD 650 like with the Nighthawks and to a lesser degree the DT 150. I've always thought vocals was one of the HD 650's weakest points as well as it's imaging. I know AKGs have problems with shouty vocals due to their boosted upper mid-ranges, it's always been my main complaint about them. I found too many headphones have exaggerated upper ranges. My problem with the HD 650 vocals wasn't airiness or their tonality, but rather they lacked some definition and depth making them sound a bit too flat and soft.

Honestly neither will sound quite right compared to good speakers. But honestly after many years, I came to the conclusion headphones that are more closed are more true given they are designed well. The older LCD-2 honestly sounds better to me than the newer one to me.

I would think a fully open-back Nighthawk would honestly sound worse personally. I often found what is referred to as air shouldn't necessarily even be there to begin with, rather a black background, space around sounds(what I consider to be true air, not that weird fuzz/sparkle effect many refer to as air), and dimensionality are accurate.

I agree with this. Space and air around vocals on HD650 is not very good compared to HE500 and NH. Also, too flat for my liking. Not much euphoria happening with HD650 with vocals alone.
Also there is also always some sort of distortion going on with HD650 to my ears. I can't get through a single track without hearing some sort of distortion happening compared to other headphones.
Compared to a live performance, HD650 lacks weight and fullness of the singers voice coming through a microphone.

HE500 a good headphone, I really don't have much to pick about HE500 other than its heavy weight and uncomfortableness. Always remind me I'm listening to a headphone and never dissapear. But, I really do like it.

The HD650 and Pandora Hope IV have been sold. I most likely pick up Chord Mojo next month and sell HE500 and Dragonfly as well and pick up HE560. Dragonfly sound good, but I don't think it will have enough power for HE560.

Then with NH and HE560 and Chord Mojo, I am done with heaephone setup.

Since I already have good sound through my speaker setup as well, I don't want to spend too much on headphone setup.

 

[kman1211]

I agree with this. Space and air around vocals on HD650 is not very good compared to HE500 and NH. Basically, though it has details, it's too flat for me. Not much euphoria happening with HD650 with vocals alone.
Also there is also always some sort of distortion going on with HD650 to my ears. I can't get through a single track without hearing some sort of distortion happening compared to other headphones.
Compared to a live performance, HD650 lacks weight and fullness of the singers voice coming through a microphone.

HE500 a good headphone, I really don't have much to pick about HE500 other than its heavy weight and uncomfortableness. Always remind me I'm listening to a headphone and never dissapear. But, I really do like it.

The odd thing about the HD 650 I found it's overall sound to be full and have a lot of presence,especially it's bass on certain systems, but the vocals never seemed to quite fully flesh themselves out like many other good headphones do on good systems. The distortion effect is likely due to it being underpowered or something else. I got euphoria from other aspects of the sound with the HD 650 but not really the vocals, it was kind of strange.
 
I also view the HE-500 a great headphone, but it was quite uncomfortable.

 

[Hachiko270296]

I agree with this. Space and air around vocals on HD650 is not very good compared to HE500 and NH. Also, too flat for my liking. Not much euphoria happening with HD650 with vocals alone.
Also there is also always some sort of distortion going on with HD650 to my ears. I can't get through a single track without hearing some sort of distortion happening compared to other headphones.
Compared to a live performance, HD650 lacks weight and fullness of the singers voice coming through a microphone.

HE500 a good headphone, I really don't have much to pick about HE500 other than its heavy weight and uncomfortableness. Always remind me I'm listening to a headphone and never dissapear. But, I really do like it.

The HD650 and Pandora Hope IV have been sold. I most likely pick up Chord Mojo next month and sell HE500 as well and pick up HE560. Dragonfly sound good, but I don't think it will have enough power for HE560.
Then my NH, and HE560 and Chord Mojo, I am done with heaephone setup.

Prob because the Dragonfly can't drive the HD650, at all. If the HD650 lack weight then something is wrong.