[gldgate]

Finally got my second word clock cable in today so I was able to hook up mutec to external clock as well. I agree with the board consensus opinion. The antelope Liveclock is not only better on the RedNet but I prefer it on Mutec as well. If anything, I think the Mutec benefits even more than the RedNet from the Antelope. Same type of improvements as with the RedNet (more solid imaging) but even more magnified. Before purchasing the Antelope I was on the fence as to the importance of external clocks. I'm well off the fence now. If anything, I'm even more curious on how a 10M clock would perform. Still amazed at the versatility of the Mutec box. Whether internal or external clock reference, USB or AOIP, Mutec's reclocking has shown to improve sq across the board. Good stuff.

 

[jelt2359]

I wonder if a single ref10 would do better, or this antelope. Don't really have the stomach for more than one external clock, although I do understand they are different items...

 

[gldgate]

I wonder if a single ref10 would do better, or this antelope. Don't really have the stomach for more than one external clock, although I do understand they are different items...

 
Until the Ref10 comes out I don't think anyone knows for sure. From what I hear the Mutec will be cheaper than the Antelope 10MX. The older 10M is officially discontinued so we may start seeing deals on those as well. There is also the Stanford Research Perf 10. My understanding is that Stanford clock is actually what is used in the 10M but that Antelope adds some additional audio type improvements (power supply etc..) For those on the budget there is also a Rubidium clock from China that sells for about $1100-$1200. 
 
Given the quality and performance of the Mutec MC-3+USB I will be following the Ref10 release very closely.  
 
Will say that given the nose-bleed pricing of state of the art clocks the Antelope Liveclock really fits a market niche. Glad another forum member shed light on this more affordable option.
 
Too bad rb2013 is posting less here. He got the ball rolling on the RedNet/external clock issue. So grateful for his input.

 

[enginedr]

I am a little confused here You state the Antelope helped the Mutec as well as the Red net . Question I have to ask when you insert the Antelope in the Mutec word clock in and out are you bypassing the Mutec clock or cascading both clocks ? If you are bypassing the Mutec
clock that tells me the Antelope is a superior clock and there is no need for a Mutec . I have inserted my Live clock in the Red Net 3 loop
and commanded it to use the Antelope as the Master clock . If I am wrong with assumption please explain

 

[jabbr]

I get a sense that not everybody knows what the difference is between reclocking, master wordclock and 10M-clock sources:
 
Mutec performs reclocking of SPDIF. It can use an internal word clock mechanism (their 1G mechanism) or an external word clock generator (like Antelope Live clock or Grimm CC1 or others)
 
Master clocks vary quite alot in design, oscilators used, narrow-band / wide-band PLL etc. They can give therefore quite varying results depending not only on the clock but also depending on the device to be reclocked.
 
10M clocks are clocks with very high long term stability. This does not say anything about short term variation.
 
Grimm has published a number of white papers explaining the purpose and usability of master wordclocks and PLL, 10M clocks, jitter etc.
They are an easy and interesting read and I think a 'must know' to be able to make well considered decisions:
 
http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/pll_and_clocking.pdf           - A tutorial on PLL's and their influence on jitter.
http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/pll_and_clock_basics.pdf    - PLL and clock basics without the math.
http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/picoseconds_or_ppm.pdf    - Provides insight in the highly debatable topic of 'atomic clocks for audio'.
 
 
Cheers

 

[jabbr]

 
I am a little confused here You state the Antelope helped the Mutec as well as the Red net . Question I have to ask when you insert the Antelope in the Mutec word clock in and out are you bypassing the Mutec clock or cascading both clocks ? If you are bypassing the Mutec
clock that tells me the Antelope is a superior clock and there is no need for a Mutec . I have inserted my Live clock in the Red Net 3 loop
and commanded it to use the Antelope as the Master clock . If I am wrong with assumption please explain

I can state that adding a Mutec MC-3+USB that reclocks the output of the RedNet has a far greater impact than only adding an external wordclock to the RedNet.
Putting both under the same wordclock gives best results.

 

[jabbr]

I wonder if a single ref10 would do better, or this antelope. Don't really have the stomach for more than one external clock, although I do understand they are different items...

The Ref10 is just that, a 10Mhz clock.
It is not a wordclock, so it does not generate clock signals needed for clocking audio 44.1kHz - 192kHz.
 
The Ref10 generates a 10Mhz that can be used by clocking devices that can accept a 10 Mhz signal. It is meant for giving wordclock generators like the Antelope a more stable input to their internal oscilator than whatever method they otherwise use.
 
In general you cannot just replace a wordclock that generates 44.1-192 kHz signals with a 10M clock. The device receiving a 10M clock must be designed to handle that and use that with their generator of a wordclock for digital audio devices.
 
Read the Grimm papers!

 

[jelt2359]

The Ref10 is just that, a 10Mhz clock.
It is not a wordclock, so it does not generate clock signals needed for clocking audio 44.1kHz - 192kHz.

The Ref10 generates a 10Mhz that can be used by clocking devices that can accept a 10 Mhz signal. It is meant for giving wordclock generators like the Antelope a more stable input to their internal oscilator than whatever method they otherwise use.

In general you cannot just replace a wordclock that generates 44.1-192 kHz signals with a 10M clock. The device receiving a 10M clock must be designed to handle that and use that with their generator of a wordclock for digital audio devices.

Read the Grimm papers!

I should have provided the context. Gldgate, Mourip and myself all have the Rednet in addition to the Mutec 3+ USB. The latter device accepts a 10mhz signal. The question is whether the ref10 or the antelope- both different items, but similar in that they're an additional box that costs money (heh)- would make a better improvement to this chain.

So:

Rednet (clocked by antelope) -> Mutec 3+ USB (clocked by antelope)

Vs

Rednet -> Mutec 3+ USB (with a ref10 signal)

...is the comparison I was alluding to.

 

[gldgate]

  I get a sense that not everybody knows what the difference is between reclocking, master wordclock and 10M-clock sources:
 
Mutec performs reclocking of SPDIF. It can use an internal word clock mechanism (their 1G mechanism) or an external word clock generator (like Antelope Live clock or Grimm CC1 or others)
 
Master clocks vary quite alot in design, oscilators used, narrow-band / wide-band PLL etc. They can give therefore quite varying results depending not only on the clock but also depending on the device to be reclocked.
 
10M clocks are clocks with very high long term stability. This does not say anything about short term variation.
 
Grimm has published a number of white papers explaining the purpose and usability of master wordclocks and PLL, 10M clocks, jitter etc.
They are an easy and interesting read and I think a 'must know' to be able to make well considered decisions:
 
http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/pll_and_clocking.pdf           - A tutorial on PLL's and their influence on jitter.
http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/pll_and_clock_basics.pdf    - PLL and clock basics without the math.
http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/picoseconds_or_ppm.pdf    - Provides insight in the highly debatable topic of 'atomic clocks for audio'.
 
 
Cheerse​

 
 
Yes, I've read all the Grimm white papers and even referenced one on CA when someone there was referencing an Atomic Clock for the Mutec. However, there are still several high end studios that use the Antelope 10M and swear by the result. In the end I've decided (like much of my experience with Audio) that technical papers alone do not guarantee great sound and that home audition is generally the best course of action. Not saying that the Antelope 10M would be better than the Grimm or upcoming Mutec. Just know that I was somewhat skeptical of external clocks in general and my experience with the Liveclock has been a pleasant surprise. Because of this I'm not going to write anything off.

 

[jabbr]

Noted!
 
But less well read people should not think they can add a 10M clock into their Rednets.
The Rednet requires a wordclock (44.1  kHz - 192 kHz) and not a 10M clock.
 
 
Cheers

 

[mourip]

I should have provided the context. Gldgate, Mourip and myself all have the Rednet in addition to the Mutec 3+ USB. The latter device accepts a 10mhz signal. The question is whether the ref10 or the antelope- both different items, but similar in that they're an additional box that costs money (heh)- would make a better improvement to this chain.

So:

Rednet (clocked by antelope) -> Mutec 3+ USB (clocked by antelope)

Vs

Rednet -> Mutec 3+ USB (with a ref10 signal)

...is the comparison I was alluding to.

 
 
AFAIK no one here can answer your question yet as none of us have sipped from that 10M cup due to expense and the incredibly rapid pace of our recent discoveries...and purchases.
 
...so we would be guessing. Probably one of us will cave in eventually as the curiosity gets to us...
 
Personally I am literally running out of rack/cabinet space.

 

[enginedr]

  I can state that adding a Mutec MC-3+USB that reclocks the output of the RedNet has a far greater impact than only adding an external wordclock to the RedNet.
Putting both under the same wordclock gives best results.

Sounds like I am getting steered to a Re-clock in the SPDIF chain . If that is the icing on the cake can I use the Mutec mc3+ without the USB and get the same results ?

 

[mourip]

 
Sounds like I am getting steered to a Re-clock in the SPDIF chain . If that is the icing on the cake can I use the Mutec mc3+ without the USB and get the same results ?

 
I basically asked Julian from Mutec in that CA thread this same question. His reply was that the Mutec MC+3 USB incorporates a lot of upgrades other than just adding USB.
 
I was thinking of getting the cheaper model for my HP rig since I no longer use USB there.  Hard to say how big a difference it would make without trying it out but I decided against buying a second less expensive Mutec for now until the dust settles a bit.

 

[enginedr]

   
I basically asked Julian from Mutec in that CA thread this same question. His reply was that the Mutec MC+3 USB incorporates a lot of upgrades other than just adding USB.
 
I was thinking of getting the cheaper model for my HP rig since I no longer use USB there.  Hard to say how big a difference it would make without trying it out but I decided against buying a second less expensive Mutec for now until the dust settles a bit.

Thank you for the answer . I also feel the USB version would have better resale appeal as it solves more problems for USB audio chains .
I have room for one more box that is it .The wife is going to have me committed .
What I am hearing now is off the hook good . How much better can it get ? 

 

[gldgate]

 
I am a little confused here You state the Antelope helped the Mutec as well as the Red net . Question I have to ask when you insert the Antelope in the Mutec word clock in and out are you bypassing the Mutec clock or cascading both clocks ? If you are bypassing the Mutec
clock that tells me the Antelope is a superior clock and there is no need for a Mutec . I have inserted my Live clock in the Red Net 3 loop
and commanded it to use the Antelope as the Master clock . If I am wrong with assumption please explain

 
In my system, the Mutec is now set up for external reclocking. It is still performing a reclocking function but now using the Antelope as the external clock reference instead of the internal Mutec clock. At the same time the Antelope is also serving as the external clock reference for the RedNet. Having both devices using the Antelope provides better sq to my ears.