AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[rb2013]

  Yes - many thanks for keeping track and reporting of all that data... and great to re-post on occasion as these threads get pretty long and the ratings/rankings list becomes a good anchor point
To me, it seems that for USB, the source of the signal origin itself is critical.. (my USB system sounds great, so I would like to be cautious while stepping into the AOIP realm..) 
For example in my experience, just at the computer level; using all LPS, server software in core mode, wav files, simple playback software allowing the computer to go into a simulated hibernate, no spinning drives, no fans, monitor powered off, (and some of the other crazy but commonly reported improvements like special SATA cables and resonance control of the SSD's).. I can eek out maybe 40 positive perception points on your list. so.. though I am also pretty sure the D16 will kill the PUC2 given the price difference and the advance in technology the past couple years, when I saw the combination of microrendu and the JS-2 (which I understand is pretty special due to its isolated design) - I was thinking that combination should give the PUC2 a somewhat solid performance base - so thus provide another good reference point that I could better relate to.

 
Heroic efforts on the USB front.  I stopped at WIN10 and Jplay.  The JC-2 should help the PUC2 and the microrendu SQ.  Sure wish the Rednet stuff had an ext DC power connection (one thing likely on the upcoming Dante device - if they take my advice).
 
When I had the PUC2 did not have the Startech/ICRON GB LAN USB extender for isolation - I'm sure that would have helped.  I did with the F-1 - and a ridiculous USB data/power chain.
Still the AOIP was in a whole other league.  The microrendu is still left to a USB device for the final link - from what I gather.
 
Removing the USB - even GI USB - revealed a SQ that seemed to remove a sort of distortion - just a more natural ease to the music.

 

[enginedr]

 
Oh I thought you were talking about vinyl conversion (if it's going to go to your computer it has to be digitalized).  Since vinyl is analog - you'd need a analog to digital (ADC) device.
 
So a AOIP ADC vs a USB ADC?
 
BTW talking about coming full circle - I did digitalize my LP collection - about 10 yrs ago.  Used an Ethernet Pro Audio ADC!  EMU 1616M - the Ethernet protocol was based on a proprietary scheme.  It worked great - using Steinberg's Wavelab 6.0 - archived every LP at 32 bit 176K sampling WAV files.  Had a near sota analog rig back then.
 
Boy do they sound great played through AOIP.

The Behringer Ultramatch Pro SRC2496 is a ADC with AES digital out - to RN3  AES to DB25  using a custom cable or a DB25 snake cable - set the Red Net to Send and the computer to receive
I believe this would be a good solution using AOIP for vinyl conversion .    

 

[rb2013]

 
The Behringer Ultramatch Pro SRC2496 is a ADC with AES digital out - to RN3  AES to DB25  using a custom cable or a DB25 snake cable - set the Red Net to Send and the computer to receive
I believe this would be a good solution using AOIP for vinyl conversion .    

Yes I see your original thought - took me a while to get it.  I posted a PS to my original post.  It will still come down to the quality of the ADC, although AOIP vs USB should help.

 

[rb2013]

I should also note that the Rednet's have a SRC feature on the digital inputs - how that might help or hurt the conversion quality would be an interesting question.  Wavelab offers a s/w SRC as well.  But in my trials it was not beneficial vs just a straight recording at the ADC SR.

 

[Iving]

The PC *does* make a difference.
 
Since owning a D16 AES, I have played music from: (i) a Microsoft Surface Pro 3 (SP3) via its Docking Station; (ii) a new but low-spec Acer laptop and, now, (iii) a brand new, very-few-holds-barred, silent PC.
 
(i) The SP3 sounded great - USB cast to history in an instant - but it had a noisy fan, and I wasn't sure about the ethernet route from tablet via Docking Station.
 
(ii) I used the laptop (normally used in a trivial system upstairs) whilst researching and ordering a new bespoke PC. The laptop has its own ethernet port (no adapter required). The SQ was pretty much comparable with the SP3. If I had to call between them the SP3 was slightly better - less abrasive shall we say.
 
(iii) The new machine is a silent (no moving parts) PC comprising:
- Gigabyte GA-X170-EXTREME ECC Thunderbolt™ 3 Certified C236 Chipset Motherboard;
- Intel Core i7 6700 Skylake CPU;
- Corsair 16GB Vengeance LPX DDR4 2400MHz RAM;
- Windows 10 Pro on Samsung SM951 128GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD;
- *.flac on Samsung 850 EVO 1TB 2.5" SATA SSD;
- (choice of) Dual LAN (Killer™ E2400 and Intel®);
- fanless "0dB" 400W PSU (being replaced shortly actually because of coil whine).
I am using the Killer vs. Intel NIC because by comparison it has demonstrably lower latency - see http://techreport.com/review/29144/revisiting-the-killer-nic-eight-years-on/2.
 
In a nutshell, the transparency is not terribly greater (although the margin is undoubtedly there): very broadly speaking any old PC can feed a RedNet for excellent transparency, demonstrating downstream credentials consistently ...
 
... but I can tell you that what we (audiophiles) call PRaT is in a different league altogether. It is as if an adept and eager conductor stands before your artist ensuring tempo; or, as if @rb2013 had returned with yet a newer device having served an internship at NIST (https://www.wired.com/2014/04/nist-atomic-clock/).
 
The point is that SQ PRaT rather than SQ transparency is the return on my investment - and I don't doubt for a moment that in terms of system rebalancing it has been worth every penny. The musical elevation because of enhanced PRaT is very significant.
 
Latency through the Killer NIC is rock fast at <1ms unwavering mean.
 
Thunderbolt 3 ready too ...

 

[Iving]

I have been too restrained!
 
Warming up ...
 
It's in another orbit altogether.
 
(Galaxy actually.)

 

[mz2014]

Would not it be easier and better like that:
Soundaware D100Pro Femto with I2S out to DAC.

 

[Iving]

I was wrong about transparency.
 
The difference is like going from USB to RedNet for the first time.
 
The diminution of digital edge/harshness makes you think for a moment that detail has been lost.
 
But it's like adapting to new spectacles.
 
This up-to-date, fast, silent PC has made as much difference to my whole system as going from USB to RedNet.
 
And that is saying something.
 
RedNet with knobs on.
 
Warmth, detail, thumping bass - unmistakeable, foot-tapping PRaT.
 
Honest

 

[soundquest]

The PC *does* make a difference.....
 
I have been too restrained!
 
Warming up ...
 
It's in another orbit altogether.
 
(Galaxy actually.)

Thank you for sharing that. And, congrats. 
 
So, this brings up two questions. 
 
What ROLE does the PC play in the new AOIP paradigm? [A friend of mine gave up the mRendu for an Auralic Aries stating the Aries "takes the computer out of the signal chain and replaces it entirely with a minimalist, purpose built device that does a great job at handling, streaming, playing digital music files." Okay, but the files still have to be "served." I'm looking to buy or build a "purpose built" PC (currently have a mac mini), but wonder what I really need for AOIP and if thunderbolt is a key ingredient. And, I see guys building LOW powered minimal units to avoid high wattage PSUs and use a linear power supply. I read about other guys using a "two PC" solution; one as server, one as controller. 
If you were starting from scratch, what would you use? 
 
And, then there's SOFTWARE side; what are you AOIPoids using for music player software? 
 
Not aiming to derail this long and winding thread. Thank you all for sharing your insights. 

 

[rb2013]

 
The PC *does* make a difference.
 
Since owning a D16 AES, I have played music from: (i) a Microsoft Surface Pro 3 (SP3) via its Docking Station; (ii) a new but low-spec Acer laptop and, now, (iii) a brand new, very-few-holds-barred, silent PC.
 
(i) The SP3 sounded great - USB cast to history in an instant - but it had a noisy fan, and I wasn't sure about the ethernet route from tablet via Docking Station.
 
(ii) I used the laptop (normally used in a trivial system upstairs) whilst researching and ordering a new bespoke PC. The laptop has its own ethernet port (no adapter required). The SQ was pretty much comparable with the SP3. If I had to call between them the SP3 was slightly better - less abrasive shall we say.
 
(iii) The new machine is a silent (no moving parts) PC comprising:
- Gigabyte GA-X170-EXTREME ECC Thunderbolt™ 3 Certified C236 Chipset Motherboard;
- Intel Core i7 6700 Skylake CPU;
- Corsair 16GB Vengeance LPX DDR4 2400MHz RAM;
- Windows 10 Pro on Samsung SM951 128GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD;
- *.flac on Samsung 850 EVO 1TB 2.5" SATA SSD;
- (choice of) Dual LAN (Killer™ E2400 and Intel®);
- fanless "0dB" 400W PSU (being replaced shortly actually because of coil whine).
I am using the Killer vs. Intel NIC because by comparison it has demonstrably lower latency - see http://techreport.com/review/29144/revisiting-the-killer-nic-eight-years-on/2.
 
In a nutshell, the transparency is not terribly greater (although the margin is undoubtedly there): very broadly speaking any old PC can feed a RedNet for excellent transparency, demonstrating downstream credentials consistently ...
 
... but I can tell you that what we (audiophiles) call PRaT is in a different league altogether. It is as if an adept and eager conductor stands before your artist ensuring tempo; or, as if @rb2013 had returned with yet a newer device having served an internship at NIST (https://www.wired.com/2014/04/nist-atomic-clock/).
 
The point is that SQ PRaT rather than SQ transparency is the return on my investment - and I don't doubt for a moment that in terms of system rebalancing it has been worth every penny. The musical elevation because of enhanced PRaT is very significant.
 
Latency through the Killer NIC is rock fast at <1ms unwavering mean.
 
Thunderbolt 3 ready too ...

Sweet machine!  TB3 on board - outstanding.   Good report on the killer NIC
 
 
I did notice the SQ improved going from a WIN7 iCore5 to a WIN10 iCore5 - not anything earth shattering but noticeble
.
I did some tweeking on my machine - replaced the PS with a high PSRR fanless SeaSonic.  Added some SATA filters to the HD (will go to SSD on my next machine upgrade).
 
This I did recently added a dedicated AC line noise filter and isolation device  - that also made a noticeble difference.
 
Cheers!

 

[Iving]

  Thank you for sharing that. And, congrats. 
 
So, this brings up two questions. 
 
What ROLE does the PC play in the new AOIP paradigm? [A friend of mine gave up the mRendu for an Auralic Aries stating the Aries "takes the computer out of the signal chain and replaces it entirely with a minimalist, purpose built device that does a great job at handling, streaming, playing digital music files." Okay, but the files still have to be "served." I'm looking to buy or build a "purpose built" PC (currently have a mac mini), but wonder what I really need for AOIP and if thunderbolt is a key ingredient. And, I see guys building LOW powered minimal units to avoid high wattage PSUs and use a linear power supply. I read about other guys using a "two PC" solution; one as server, one as controller. 
If you were starting from scratch, what would you use? 
 
And, then there's SOFTWARE side; what are you AOIPoids using for music player software? 
 
Not aiming to derail this long and winding thread. Thank you all for sharing your insights. 

 
Thanks!
 
Thunderbolt (3) awaits - not directly relevant to AOIP.
 
I have abandoned UPnP altogether, There is no doubt that playing direct is best.
 
You know how one thing leads to another. If I were starting from scratch I wouldn't change anything (except the blood, sweat and tears). The rest of the system is:

| Blue Jeans Cat 6 ethernet cable (40') | Focusrite RedNet D16 AES digital interface | van den Hul AES-EBU 110 Ohm Professional Halogen Free cable (0.8m) | Dangerous Convert-2 DAC [Word Clock Out to Focusrite RedNet D16 AES via Pro Co Premium Canare cable (3')] | Bespoke Achtung Audio Silver XLR/RCA "Pin 3 Floating" interconnects (1.2m) | Linn AV 5103 System Controller | Linn Silver interconnects (1.2m) | 2 x stereo Quad 909 power amps with identical DADA revisions | vertically bi-amping via Linn LK400 (c. 3m) | Snell Type A III (woofers restored Dave Smith, Romford July 2011; mid-ranges restored Paul Seago, Great Yarmouth July 2016)
 
foobar - and only foobar (192k courtesy of Sox). With this PC I can set the foobar output buffer to minimum and it will do anything I ask instantly - no hiccoughs.
 
Other settings:

DVS:
       Dante Latency: 4ms
       ASIO Buffer: 32
       ASIO Encoding: 32 bits
       ASIO Latency: 1ms
RedNet Control:
       SR: 192000
       ASIO Buffer: 32
Dante Controller:
       SP3 Device Config
              Sample Rate: 192k
              Encoding: PCM 32
       D16 Device Config
              Sample Rate: 192k
              Latency - 250us (150us is greyed out)
 
It's no derailment at all for you to ask. We are milking AOIP. All the digital harshness has gone. There is *no* fatigue. The sound is beautifully warm, and it hasn't "burned in" at all.

 

[Iving]

 
Sweet machine!  TB3 on board - outstanding.   Good report on the killer NIC
 
 
I did notice the SQ improved going from a WIN7 iCore5 to a WIN10 iCore5 - not anything earth shattering but noticeble
.
I did some tweeking on my machine - replaced the PS with a high PSRR fanless SeaSonic.  Added some SATA filters to the HD (will go to SSD on my next machine upgrade).
 
This I did recently added a dedicated AC line noise filter and isolation device  - that also made a noticeble difference.
 
Cheers!

 
Thanks Bob
 
Yeah - The Killer NIC - I wonder ...

 

[rb2013]

  Thank you for sharing that. And, congrats. 
 
So, this brings up two questions. 
 
What ROLE does the PC play in the new AOIP paradigm? [A friend of mine gave up the mRendu for an Auralic Aries stating the Aries "takes the computer out of the signal chain and replaces it entirely with a minimalist, purpose built device that does a great job at handling, streaming, playing digital music files." Okay, but the files still have to be "served." I'm looking to buy or build a "purpose built" PC (currently have a mac mini), but wonder what I really need for AOIP and if thunderbolt is a key ingredient. And, I see guys building LOW powered minimal units to avoid high wattage PSUs and use a linear power supply. I read about other guys using a "two PC" solution; one as server, one as controller. 
If you were starting from scratch, what would you use? 
 
And, then there's SOFTWARE side; what are you AOIPoids using for music player software? 
 
Not aiming to derail this long and winding thread. Thank you all for sharing your insights. 

Good point on the DNLA/UpNP scheme - a lot of moving pieces to get right. See the postings at the beginning of this thread - by a few talented audio designers, like:

 

Miska

Masters Level Member​

Join Date​

Apr 2010​

Location​

Finland​

Posts​

6,685​

Blog Entries​

12​

 ​

So Ethernet input DACs without a computer inside are still a rare beast. Even more so if you want one that does not require DLNA. The Sonore Rendu (and Logitech Squeezebox and the like) as an Ethernet>S/PDIF or >I2S device comes pretty close, as the processor that acts as its "renderer" has embedded code and is not running an OS. But one still has to think about server and controller s/w to feed it (if using DLNA).




​

UPnP is horribly complex and bad design and DLNA spec on top of it makes it even worse. So that's ruled out. Anything that is based on IP protocol on top of ethernet requires a computer, one form or another. Doing anything above IP protocol without proper OS is extremely bad idea​

, because you'll spend a decade trying just to perfect IP stack implementation while you end up building OS of your own while doing so which would end up being much worse implementation than anything already existing (unless you have thousands on man years to spend)...​

​

 ​

​

 
Now AOIP (as I define it - that is Dante and Ravenna) - There are two ways to connect to the DDC.  One is with an expensive PCIe card - like the $1K Rednet PCIe.  The other is using the included Dante DVS (Digital Virtual Soundcard).  I haven't had or seen anyone try the PCIe card route - but my thinking is it may not yield much in the way of SQ improved- just lower latency.
 
Some folks with older PCs have had issues getting the highest SR to work with the Rednet stuff - so a new or newer PC should be no issue if an iCore series.  Not sure on the low power chips.  If you're getting a new PC why not get one with TB3 on board - even with an iCore3 (although I'd get the iCore5 or 7 for a little more money).
 
On the PC PS front - going with a high PSRR silent PS is a good idea and not to expensive - of course a LPS is ideal.  TeraDak has a nice $400 unit.  10A 24V.
 
The beauty (and

differentiating from DNLA/UpNP​

) of AOIP is the ability to use any audio player that works with ASIO.  So Foobar (my player), JR, etc... all good and easy to run.

 

[gldgate]

  Thank you for sharing that. And, congrats. 
 
So, this brings up two questions. 
 
What ROLE does the PC play in the new AOIP paradigm? [A friend of mine gave up the mRendu for an Auralic Aries stating the Aries "takes the computer out of the signal chain and replaces it entirely with a minimalist, purpose built device that does a great job at handling, streaming, playing digital music files." Okay, but the files still have to be "served." I'm looking to buy or build a "purpose built" PC (currently have a mac mini), but wonder what I really need for AOIP and if thunderbolt is a key ingredient. And, I see guys building LOW powered minimal units to avoid high wattage PSUs and use a linear power supply. I read about other guys using a "two PC" solution; one as server, one as controller. 
If you were starting from scratch, what would you use? 
 
And, then there's SOFTWARE side; what are you AOIPoids using for music player software? 
 
Not aiming to derail this long and winding thread. Thank you all for sharing your insights. 

 
I have a CAPS Pipeline and Puget Systems Serenity Pro PC's. Both are purpose built to be quiet. With AOIP I do not find there is any difference in sq. With USB set up I felt there was a more noticeable difference. Same goes with software. With USB set up I really liked Infinity Blade/ Jplay combo and did not care much for JRiver. With AOIP I find there is much less difference in software (they all sound great) and use JRiver and Roon the most because of features/convenience. Not saying there is no difference. Just not that meaningful to me in the big picture. Others have expressed different experiences which is fine - I have been involved in Audio long enough to know that opinions are better set in clay than in stone. However, I would venture to say based on all I have read  that most seem to find AOIP less finicky and easier to optimize (or get into a very acceptable listening state) than USB. 

 

[Tboooe]

   
I have a CAPS Pipeline and Puget Systems Serenity Pro PC's. Both are purpose built to be quiet. With AOIP I do not find there is any difference in sq. With USB set up I felt there was a more noticeable difference. Same goes with software. With USB set up I really liked Infinity Blade/ Jplay combo and did not care much for JRiver. With AOIP I find there is much less difference in software (they all sound great) and use JRiver and Roon the most because of features/convenience. Not saying there is no difference. Just not that meaningful to me in the big picture. Others have expressed different experiences which is fine - I have been involved in Audio long enough to know that opinions are better set in clay than in stone. However, I would venture to say based on all I have read  that most seem to find AOIP less finicky and easier to optimize (or get into a very acceptable listening state) than USB. 

How great would it be if AOIP leveled the playing field somewhat and allowed us to focus more on downstream components (speakers, amps, pres) that actually played the music like the "old" days???!!  I miss those days.....