[thebkt]

I've been following this thread for some time...also the DAC-19 thread before it. I own a NOS 19 (primary system DAC) + DAC-19 (2ndary system). I also owned an NB 15.32 combo at one time. I'm kind of an Audio GD fanboy.

But to be honest here, I can't imagine going through what you describe to update any Audio GD DAC. It sounds like a real kludge w/real potential for harm to the DAC, or at the very least, inducing all manner of errors that weren't there before. FYI, I tried setting up a virtual Win 7/32 machine several years ago (on a Win 7/64 PC). It may or may not have worked...I'll never know because I just couldn't understand how to actually operate real-world software on the virtual machine.

Later this year I'll purchase an R2R 1, the newest one w/everything switchable from front panel (no jumpers). Then, as I've done w/my other AGD DACs, I will forget all about the possibility of updating because it's just too difficult/intimidating.

There are many things to like about Audio GD--but for this crazy method of updating to persist at a time when pretty much every other mfr allows updating via flash driver or download--it just makes no sense to me.

I can't really blame you for being put off by the prospect of the firmware update process. I was very wary of the process myself, given I didn't want to damage my gear. Even though I thought I was being super careful, I still connected the blaster cable to the jumper pins in reverse... I consider myself relatively capable of tinkering with the innards of electronics and still made such a simple mistake that potentially could have caused serious harm.

I'm sure more experienced tinkerers would have no problem with the process, but even for someone who has always built their own PC's and done upgrades by hand, it was daunting. In saying that, practice makes perfect, if you've ever got some cheaper/smaller gear to get your head around making a process that works for you!

 

[Elder]

I've been following this thread for some time...also the DAC-19 thread before it. I own a NOS 19 (primary system DAC) + DAC-19 (2ndary system). I also owned an NB 15.32 combo at one time. I'm kind of an Audio GD fanboy.

But to be honest here, I can't imagine going through what you describe to update any Audio GD DAC. It sounds like a real kludge w/real potential for harm to the DAC, or at the very least, inducing all manner of errors that weren't there before. FYI, I tried setting up a virtual Win 7/32 machine several years ago (on a Win 7/64 PC). It may or may not have worked...I'll never know because I just couldn't understand how to actually operate real-world software on the virtual machine.

Later this year I'll purchase an R2R 1, the newest one w/everything switchable from front panel (no jumpers). Then, as I've done w/my other AGD DACs, I will forget all about the possibility of updating because it's just too difficult/intimidating.

There are many things to like about Audio GD--but for this crazy method of updating to persist at a time when pretty much every other mfr allows updating via flash driver or download--it just makes no sense to me.

Your right. Upgrading the firmware for the R2R 11 is not for the faint of heart.
It is worth of note the AGD effort to fit the two DA-8 modules in a such small place in the NFB-11 case to create the R2R 11 DAC. This makes maintenance harder but offered the best deal for a R2R ladder DAC in the market.

 

[PopZeus]

I switched the jumper to get a fixed line level output on my R2R-11. That was the extent of my tinkering. I’m very curious to hear the new firmware with the R2R-1 but I’d really prefer it if a technician performed the install.

 

[allhifi]

Well, now that Audio-gd has joined the R2R pool, I reckon there could be a dedicated thread since the Schiit and Denafrips guys have 'em too!

The R2R 7 thread is alive and well, and a few of us have even posted our musings on the little brother R2R 11 there, but now that the R2R 2 is out, so I figure if you've got questions, thoughts, or impressions on any of the above, let's drop 'em here.

For me personally, I've owned a few of the AGD items, including the NFB 11, 15.32, 10.33, and 29. A few months ago, I happened onto a FS thread for a like new R2R 11, the new entry level combo unit built on a ladder design.

To say I was impressed would be a large understatement. I know that the AGD stuff represents an excellent value in our community, but I wasn't prepared for the capability of that unit. Truth be told, it held it's own easily against my previous stack, $900 DAC feeding a $700 headamp.

Since I like to be informed on the design philosophy behind my favorite gear, I went to the manufacturer's website and lo and behold Mr. Kingwa had just released a mid-level R2R DAC that slides in between the flagship R2R 7 and R2R 11. I'm pretty sure the last time I paid full-price for a piece of gear was a few years ago, and based on my impressions with the little brother, I ponied up pretty quickly for the new R2R 2 and C-2 amp stack. Very unlike me!

The R2R 2 is a SE DAC built on 2 of the AGD DA-8 R2R modules. It can handle everything from redbook to DSD and can switch from NOS to OS modes at the push of a button, a feature only found on DACs coming in at a much healthier price point thus far. The C2 is the SE amplification equivalent from Mr. Kingwa, hitting higher than the entry level 11 gear, but not up to the flagship stuff.

I'm gonna slow down with impressions right here, but I'll tell you that I'm more impressed with this stack than the Gumby/Mjo2 stack along with most of the desktop gear I've had that retails under $1k individually. I know that's blasphemy around these parts, but that's how I hear it fellas!

I'll add to the impressions I posted initially.

TL;DR - The R2R 2, C-2, and PS1000 or HD800S is the best and most enjoyable head-fi I've experience I've had. Hands down.

Since the digital conversion will have more of an impact on my experience than the amplification circuit, I'll start with the R2R 2. I've owned a slew of DAC's in my head-fi journey, including Neko D100 mkII, MHDT Pagoda, Schiit Gumby, Auralic Vega, Chord Hugo. Granted each of those were paired with different amplifiers and mostly different headphones, I can say with certainty, that the DAC implementation in the AGD hits way above it's price point. It's competitive with anything in the above list, and to my ears, more realistic than most. After hearing the Denafrips Ares a few months ago, I'd knew I'd never go back to a delta-sigma DAC, the R2R experience is just too natural to ever forego. The R2R modules in Mr. Kingwa's design are exceptional. I find the depth, imaging, and timbre from this DAC more true-to-life than any other piece of digital gear I've laid ears on before!

The low end is rich and full - I'm very much reminded of vinyl. Nothing ever feels light or wispy. From sub-bass lines to kick drums, to lower male vocals, the tonal foundation that the R2R 2 portrays is in a word, exceptional.

Midrange is what first hooked me with R2R/multibit conversion. It's just... right. From Norah Jones to Dave Matthews to Pavarotti, vocals are rendered with such clarity and richness, that I've taken headphones off to see if someone has entered my apartment multiple times over the course of three weeks!

The top end is also very well-done. It's got the smooth, non-fatiguing nature of vinyl but without the syrupy, overly-smooth sound of poorly done NOS designs. The detail retrieval is top notch - revealing things in my 'usual' recordings that I've honestly never heard before. The balance between detail and smoothness is really just striking. Better than any of the aforementioned DACs to these ears.

And just a quick word about the soundstage/separation/imaging experience. This is what really solidified my preference for the R2R 2. In a word, things are just immersive. With some of the other R2R DACs I've had, soundstage is usually a little small and sometimes congested. The AGD opens up nicely, without seeming artificial or overblown. After A/Bing a few of the other DACs I've got on hand, the R2R really just takes things to a different place in the way of three-dimensionality. With others, I feel like I'm watching a concert, while the R2R really makes me feel (or sound) like I'm there. I've not been impressed with a single facet of a converter's sound like this in a long time!

Being able to swap between NOS and OS conversion is just icing on the cake at this point. The only other DACs I know off that even offer that option are the Holo Spring and Denafrips Venus and Terminator - both of which retail for at least double what the R2R 2 does. Almost all of my listening was done in NOS mode, as that's the part about R2R designs that usually make the magic happen, but at some point I'll get to comparing the sounds between the OS and NOS settings.

I'm happy to say that this setup is completely satisfying to me and I've no more desire to ride the head-fi merry-go-round of constant gear auditioning and upgrading! I was losing hope that this day would come (especially at a reasonable cost!)

How would the R2 compare to the PCM ESS-9038 (X2) model? Musicality is wonderful -ideally along with excellent transparency/resolution -and dynamics.
If there are any readers experienced with the AGD Delta-Sigma (9038 X2) DAC, your thoughts would be most helpful in deciding which to choose.
Thanks in advance.

pj

 

[depthgrammar]

Hello
I also have been searching the Forums for information on the R2R1 Firmware . I got one of the first R2R1's and I have never been fully satisfied with it , I like it but I find it to be a bit too decent , too mild . I have a few Audio dg dacs - Dac19 Mk3 , Dac19 2017 and a Reference 7 all PCM1704 and I really like them , that's why I got the R2R1 . I also have a Denafrips Ares and it is a giant killer , making the R2R1 seem restrained and mild . That's why I wanted to try the new Firmware . Well I got it tonight using the online offer from Mr Kingwa and it has made a vast improvement to the dac , it is now more forward , more real and more distinct , voices are in the room with you and everything is really clear and nice but the instruments are now a bit further back . yes it has lost some of the previous sound stage and instrument placing but it just sounds so much better . I have not changed any jumpers and presently I am using the NOS . I know this might sound silly but the Denafrips is almost always in the box as when I take it out It kind of shows up everything else . But back to the Firmware , it has woken up the R2R1 and that's what I was looking for . I think it will now give the Denafrips a good run .and I intend to keep the R2R1 as it's future proof .
Jsoun

@jasoun Thanks for your impressions. Wondering if you could comment on the R2R1 in comparison to your Dac19 Mk3 & Dac19 2017. After the firmware update, does it come across as a refinement of the sound of the older dacs that use the PCM1704, or is it its own thing? Do you feel that it's a significant upgrade?

 

[depthgrammar]

Also - shot in the dark, but I'm wondering if anyone could compare any iteration of either Dac19 or R2R1 to a vintage r2r dac such as the Parasound D/AC 1000 or 1500, or the Adcom GDA 600. My digital listening is still mainly via redbook cd, and I've read that r2r is the way to go, & these older dacs are even now tough to beat for this purpose. I do some listening from my computer as well, but I have an older macbook and could use optical instead of usb with the older dacs, and if need be get a usb to spdif converter.

 

[jasoun]

Hello
The R2R dacs do not have that digital glare ( edginess ) so they are a lot easier to listen to . I mostly listen to CDs and the PCM1704 dacs are the nicest sounding and most musical that I have heard . The DAC19 Mk3 is a classic having a really sweet sound and is extremely musical but is not the most detailed . The newer 2017 DAC 19 is much more detailed and has a very dynamic rich sound and has gotten much better with many hours of burn in , I bought it thinking that it would be a vast improvement on the Mk3 but to my surprise it was not , being very bright and not very nice . But it has matured and now it really sounds much better. The R2R1 was another disappointment as compared to the PCM 1704 dacs it way too restrained and much too decent sounding . It was very detailed and not digital sounding at all but it was way too mild . The new Firmware has made a great improvement in the dynamics so it's much nicer now . It is a different sound to the PCM1704 DAC19s , it's very detailed , but not as musical , but it is extremely clear and I mean that , it is very clear . It's hard to say which is better but R2R1 may be further improved as time goes by . I would also like to mention my Audio gd Reference 7 , the big brother to the dac19s . This is even more dynamic and has a fuller stronger sound and I could see where the Master 7 should be the King of the PCM1704s.( a good used one would be a great find ) . I would also like to mention an outsider , the Denafrips Ares it's a R2R ladder dac like the R2R1 but so far it has outperformed it . This little guy performs with the best , it's dynamic , very detailed and lifelike , it is an overachiever and highly recommended . To be honest I really like Audio gd dacs , I can communicate with the owner when I have a problem and they are extremely well built , they are also upgradable . The Denafrips isn't . Re the older dacs , I was fortunate to get two " new old stock " Parasound dacs a few years ago . It was the 800 and the 1100 . I really liked both but the 800 was more dynamic and had a fuller more lifelike sound . The 1100 was really better but was a bit too restrained . These older dacs sound much more lifelike than the newer offerings , they are not as detailed but the sound is much richer and more lifelike ( sounds like the band is in the room with you ) I sold the 1100 to a friend and it made a dramatic improvement when he changed the digital Filter to the CS8414 , it really opened up and I regretted having sold it . They are very good dacs , unlike the newer offerings which focus more on being detailed but somehow end up sounding a bit artificial . But unfortunately most of them are now much too old and possibly on the last lap . I was very lucky to find those Parasounds , I also changed the digital filters in the 800 and eventually sold it as I was finding it to be a bit too bright . I think that the PCM1704 dacs are classics as they capture that realistic sound , they are definitely way more musical and the newer offerings have nothing over them .. As I said an Audio gd Master 7 should be the shot but a DAC19 could also suffice . The Denafrips Ares is worth a listen as it's punching way above it's league , it is indeed a giant killer . I had a few ES9018 dacs , Wyred4Sound , Audio gd , Eastern Electric etc , they were very detailed but way too edgy and apart from the Eastern Electric , not recommended if you like to enjoy your music . Right now I am waiting on the delivery of an Audio gd 9038 pro as I am really interested to find out if the digital glare is gone and just how good it is .
That's a long one , I hope it helps .

 

[FredA]

The Master-7 is really a special dac. Very expressive and still very accurate compared the the r2r 7. You have to feed it a high-quality i2s signal. Same with the r7 but to a lesser.extent. But the r7 is still rather fussy with transports. On the best nights, the r7 is grainless, with no edginess at all, rich rounding with convincing 3D imaging. It's very close to an actual live event. I can be edgy with a degraded signal. At its best, it beats the M7 fair and square but musicality is still comparable between the two. If had the room, i would have kept both.

 

[depthgrammar]

Thanks, that is super helpful. It's a lot to consider. The master/reference 7 are out of my price range, sadly. I think from what you've written and what I'm reading in general I'm leaning toward a second-hand Dac19, it's just a little confusing which one to go for between all the versions & different firmwares. Plus they seem to change over time, so it can be hard to glean definitive impressions reading these threads. I'm not so into buying auditioning & selling gear - would really just like to get the right moderately priced components in place and then forget about it (I know it's possible because I did it with my portable rig - haven't had the itch to change anything for a long time). I'm still drawn to the Parasounds but the age is definitely a concern. I guess we'll see what comes up for sale.

Is there any consensus that one or more versions of the Dac19 are noticeably inferior or preferable? Seems like you like the mkiii over the 2017. I wonder where the SE and the DSP and the 10th anniversary edition fall in the heirarchy. Do they get better as you go backwards in time, or is there a sweet spot somewhere mid-evolution of the model? Perhaps this is a question for the Dac19 thread. Anyway I'm guessing not too many people have heard them all.

 

[Chopin75]

Thanks, that is super helpful. It's a lot to consider. The master/reference 7 are out of my price range, sadly. I think from what you've written and what I'm reading in general I'm leaning toward a second-hand Dac19, it's just a little confusing which one to go for between all the versions & different firmwares. Plus they seem to change over time, so it can be hard to glean definitive impressions reading these threads. I'm not so into buying auditioning & selling gear - would really just like to get the right moderately priced components in place and then forget about it (I know it's possible because I did it with my portable rig - haven't had the itch to change anything for a long time). I'm still drawn to the Parasounds but the age is definitely a concern. I guess we'll see what comes up for sale.

Is there any consensus that one or more versions of the Dac19 are noticeably inferior or preferable? Seems like you like the mkiii over the 2017. I wonder where the SE and the DSP and the 10th anniversary edition fall in the heirarchy. Do they get better as you go backwards in time, or is there a sweet spot somewhere mid-evolution of the model? Perhaps this is a question for the Dac19 thread. Anyway I'm guessing not too many people have heard them all.

You can also consider R2R-1, second hand or new one called R-1 now.

 

[393699]

You might want to take a look at the D-77 too. It is using a dual ES9038 Pro, and is bit more expensive than the R-1. It is currently 968 US. I talked with Kingwa about this DAC, and it appears to be awesome for its price.

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/D_77/D_77EN.htm

 

[Chopin75]

You might want to take a look at the D-77 too. It is using a dual ES9038 Pro, and is bit more expensive than the R-1. It is currently 968 US. I talked with Kingwa about this DAC, and it appears to be awesome for its price.

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/D_77/D_77EN.htm

That looks like great bargain, can also do DSD where as NOS19 does not, but is a Sabre Signa delta chip so will not have the same NOS character. It can't do NOS.

 

[393699]

Indeed, at under 1000 US, it appears to be the most bang for the buck DAC that Audio-GD currently has.

 

[jasoun]

Hello again
The DAC19 is a good choice . This is as much as I know . The DAC19 was introduced in 2005 , the SE version came in 2006 and the Mk3 ran from 2008 to 2010 . The Mk3 is an upgraded model of the DAC19 SE , it was offered with a choice of digital filters the DF1704 and the famous PMD100 . The PMD100 was more musical and the DF1704 was more detailed . When the PMD100 was no longer available Audio gd developed the DSP programmable digital filter which it has used since , so in 2010 the DSP version of the DAC19 was introduced , then later came the DAC 19 10th anniversary version in 2016 . If you could pick up a DAC19 Mk3 with the PMD100 Filter then I would go for it . If not the 10th anniversary 2016 version should be the one . The newer dacs are more detailed and still quite musical and with the DSP the sound can be altered by changing the Firmware . There are two Firmware choices the V5 and the V7 , it will come with one or the other , I think pre- ( Oct. 2016 ) it will be the V5 and from late 2016 to the present will have the the V7 . The V5 is easier to listen to , more gentle and not as bright and as forward sounding as the V7 . The later versions are also much better looking having rounded corners instead of the square cornered cases used in the earlier versions including the DSP model . The 10th Anniversary version is also much easier to find . All the DAC19s come with the PCM1704 the newer ones are just more detailed .
That's it

 

[depthgrammar]

Thanks all - definitely want to stick to r2r, so curious to hear it vs. DS. Also, I think the Dac19 second hand will fall more within my price-range than a second hand r2r1/r1. I'll look out for a mkiii or 10th anniversary/2016 DAC19