[Chopin75]

I don't want to repeat myself, as we have discussed it very well on that private thread.
I wish, I could spare the Gergiev, Mariinsky Shostakovich Symphony No.:7 with you. It's a wonderful piece of art from both the composer, the artists, and the audio engineering side. If I convert it to PCM on the fly under Foobar 2000, everything is seamless, but native DSD playback is full of glitches and noises. You can recognize this problem mainly on the most piano parts of high DR records - this is why you notice it at the beginning and at the end of the tracks, as they often start with quiet parts -, as low DR records doesn't contain this very-very quiet portion of the music. The aforementioned Shostakovich album contains DR16-DR18 tracks, but At least 30% of my DSD collection suffers from this problem.
Unfortunately on the official website, audio.gd still uses such phrases like "Unique noise process technology will remove any digital artifact", "DSD native" "To avoid the digital artifacts, a uniquely designed noise rejection processing technology is applied."
According to these, If I were a new customer I would believe, there shouldn't be any problem with Native DSD.

Thanks FredA for answering that question.

Well, I did read your other threads but as I said when I spoke with both Kingwa and Magna, they both know the R2R11 is inferior for DSD, apparently FPGA is not there in R2R11 so hence DSD is not as ideal. The average non-classical or jazz listeners may not hear the noise as music may be too loyd. As we may be the only listeners of SHostakovich and Mahler where passages of ppp, you can hear noise, esp at beginning of a track, say a Brahms piano quartet in A that I have, or Tchaikovsky's 6th quiet beginning, then it disappears and then reappears again at end of track, or occasionally reemerge in quiet passages. That is my experience with R2R7. I am not sure if R2R1 still has same issue. It should be much better than R2R11 and can' really hear unless you use headphone or stick your ear next to the speaker. I am also thinking of later getting R2R1 or the R1 for multi-channel DSD files playback but I also hope it won't have the noise as well. It could well be my computer's issue, so I am waiting for my new Macbook and try then. To be sure that R-1 works for you, you may want to send your own files to have them test the unit.
BTW, I think there is option of using Amanero USB vs F-1 USB, at least from Magna website. Kingwa can fit in F-1 if you ask as well. Magna states Amanero has been giving him problems with DSD. I use F-1 board but also has issue. Others have no issues with Amanero board either. Magna did state that unlikely my F-1 is the issue. Go figure.....! BTW, Magna did test out my files on R2R7 and he reported no issue, so it may well be some issue with my setup. We even contemplated issue with dirty AC power but I use battery from my Macbook....
My guess is R-1 most likely sound much better on DSD256, but may not be 100% issue free

 

[Chopin75]

Also, i don't know it this is specific to my setup, but switching from a pcm to a dsd track with the r2r 7 makes a loud pop. Could be due to Audirvana.

Happens to me too, despite using mute button, but perhaps audirvanna can address that. I wonder if HQplayer runs better. supposed to be best for DSD. BTW, I can't upsample DSD from 64 to 128 or 256 etc from audirvanna. Not sure why.

 

[FredA]

I only tried a single dsd track so far. It was a conversion from a hires pcm source. Sounded great. Otherwise, no dsd experience for me.[/QUOTE]

Happens to me too, despite using mute button, but perhaps audirvanna can address that. I wonder if HQplayer runs better. supposed to be best for DSD. BTW, I can't upsample DSD from 64 to 128 or 256 etc from audirvanna. Not sure why.

it's probably not supported.

 

[Chopin75]

"Unfortunately" I fell in love with R2R DACs.
I'll keep my R2R 11 in my HP chain, but I would like to have an affordable, R2R DAC for my bigger system, which has at least 2 outputs and problem free native DSD playback. I want to support Kingwa, but if Audio-gd won't support me, maybe Denafrips Ares will.

@FredA: I'm a full album listener guy, so it won't bother me too much as well. The native DSD playback problem is a different story.

Yah, classical music listeners do not really need to switch tracks every time and often listen to at least 3-4 tracks before changing album and so I also don't find pops too much of a deal except in testing different files from different albums. Despite the glitches with Audio-gd R2R, the DSD can simply be amazing too. Numerous times I have heard jaw dropping DSD sound that basically trashes all PCM sound: lustrous tone and atmospheric soundscape can be amazing. The piano tone is best I've heard. PCM comes very close on some great recordings and offers more micro-detail. I don't have enough orchestral recordings to test out the detail retrieval and handling complex music yet; But it is also very picky with DSD files. Any less than great/superb sound recording shows up nakedly. At this time I am not sure if my R2R7 is still burning in, which likely is a factor, so some albums still sound rather poor but it seems more due to the inherent less ideal quality of the recording that shows up nakedly. No sugar coating at all. DSD playback also needs to burn in separately in my opinion. I am running DSD+PCM on repeat non-stop day & night, with a set program about 2/3 time DSD, 1/3 PCM. My guess is R2R1 or R1 should come close to R2R7. If you can afford, the R-8 seems to be great bargain.

 

[jasoun]

Hey Guys and Gals,

I'm a happy Audio gd R2R 11 owner since this January. This DAC plays an important role in my work-desk listening chain. Even-though I found the integrated amp section pretty good, the setup is significantly different/better for me with a dedicated tube amp such as my Darkvoice 336SE. On the other hand I'm amazed by the DAC capabilities of this little gem, and find the ladder DAC better and more lifelike, than any of my previous DS DACs.

I'm thinking about a DAC upgrade in my bigger system which is located in the living-room. The first place on my wish list belongs to the R2R 1.
That chain contains an Electrocompaniet 4.7 preamp, an EC AW 100 dual monoblock power amp, and ProAc Response 2.5 speakers.
My questions are the followings:
- What's the difference between the R2R 1, and the newly announced R-1? (as far as I see, all NOS/OS/custom modes are programmable from the front panel, but I don't know if this is the only difference between the two products)
- As I have been suffering from the R2R 11's DSD problem, but I find native DSD somehow more pleasant than PCM, can somebody assure me that there is ZERO background noise in native DSD playback with the R2R 1?
- My EC preamp and power amp doesn't contain any HP output. Is it possible to connect and use the XLR and RCA outputs of the R-1, or R2R-1 with different preamps? If so, I would like to attach my EC 4.7 via XLR, and another Darkvoice 336SE via the RCA outputs.
- Some of the posts mentioned it, but I'm still not sure if there is any factory option for a buil iin USB isolation for the R2R 1/R-1 available, or not?
- Can anybody describe the main differences between this and the Denafrips Ares? I've read pretty good things about that DAC, and it has a better price point than the R2R 1.

Edit: I've found the answer on my 1st question. The R-1 is similar to the R2R 1 in every aspects but the new, customer friendly setup. Magna Hifi offers an affordable upgrade for R2R 1 to this new jumperless design. https://www.magnahifi.com/en/websho...to-r1/category_pathway-18/related_product-601

Hi
I don't know about PCM and DSD but I have both the Denafrips Ares and the R2R1 , Just as I got the Ares Mr Kingwa introduced the R2R1 and I had to get one . Out of the box the Denafrips killed the R2R1 so I was a bit disappointed . But after the recent Firmware update the R2R1 is now it's equal . The Denafrips has a very full sound with all the details and great separation of instruments and the R2R1 has a very clear sound and I find it to be easier to listen to . I tell my friends that if they are just going to buy one dac then the Ares is a good choice . But I am an Audio gd fan and I am keeping the R2R1 as it can be updated whenever an improved program is developed .

 

[Chopin75]

Hi
I don't know about PCM and DSD but I have both the Denafrips Ares and the R2R1 , Just as I got the Ares Mr Kingwa introduced the R2R1 and I had to get one . Out of the box the Denafrips killed the R2R1 so I was a bit disappointed . But after the recent Firmware update the R2R1 is now it's equal . The Denafrips has a very full sound with all the details and great separation of instruments and the R2R1 has a very clear sound and I find it to be easier to listen to . I tell my friends that if they are just going to buy one dac then the Ares is a good choice . But I am an Audio gd fan and I am keeping the R2R1 as it can be updated whenever an improved program is developed .

I think the Denafrips uses 5 bit of the R2R ladder to do DSD, if I remember correctly from their web. In theory this is not ideal for DSD, But theory is often not reflecting reality. They also say multi-bit Signa Delta is not ideal for DSD for similar reason of converting DSD 1 bit to 4-6 bit, apparently that is how this is done with multi-bit SD chips. Not sure of Sabre ESS 9038 does this kind of thing but apparently it sounds amazing with DSD.
I suppose one needs to be realistic. It is quite hard to find a DAC that does both DSD and PCM superbly at < $3000. Holospring apparently is really amazing with the DSD, but PCM is not universally praised. Lampizator (?spell) is apparently excellent in DSD with no chip. The R2R is so so. etc....

 

[Chopin75]

Some brief summary about DSD:

https://www.whathifi.com/advice/what-dsd-audio-how-it-works-where-to-download-files-and-more

This is the latest article about DSD. A bit brief but sums up easily.

One thing to stress is the importance to use native DSD music files that is originally recorded in DSD to test the DAC’s DSD playback. The DSD that is converted from PCM is not good.

 

[gLer]

Some brief summary about DSD:

https://www.whathifi.com/advice/what-dsd-audio-how-it-works-where-to-download-files-and-more

This is the latest article about DSD. A bit brief but sums up easily.

One thing to stress is the importance to use native DSD music files that is originally recorded in DSD to test the DAC’s DSD playback. The DSD that is converted from PCM is not good.

Good article this. Interesting how it claims DSD was initially developed because it was cheaper to implement and much easier to process. Nowadays (good) DSD support is only found in more expensive dacs, and DSD takes a much bigger toll on processing than PCM, at least using a Mac.

As for ‘pure’ DSD vs DSD concerted from PCM, as the article states, most studio DSD recordings are converted to and from PCM in the mastering stage. No other way to do it. So most (non-classical) DSDs likely have some sort of PCM treatment somewhere in the chain.

 

[gLer]

Great dac, no doubt. Safest bet for dsd.

Yes but it’s DS. If you’re an R2R fan it’s a no-go. But yes, the modern Sabre dacs don’t seem to be plagued by any noise or popping issues. And from what I’ve heard from others, the 9038 is the least ‘digital’ sounding of them all.

 

[maellen]

Purchased R2R1 last june then R1 came out with jumperless design. Feels like the former is like unfinished product.

 

[gLer]

I want to support Kingwa, but if Audio-gd won't support me, maybe Denafrips Ares will.

Great dac this. Heard it a few times. No popping or noise issues whatsoever. Not sure but I don’t think it’s a NOS dac? That does make a difference based on what I’m hearing (and what I’ve heard) with the R-28 and previously the R2R-11.

 

[gLer]

Purchased R2R1 last june then R1 came out with jumperless design. Feels like the former is like unfinished product.

Not really - it’s just an evolution of the product and AGD evolves quickly. No doubt there’ll be an R-28 derivative soon enough with front panel controls. Personally once I’ve found a setting I like (NOS 3 in my case) I set it and forget it, so it’s not a big deal. I’d like to see AGD implement switchable firmware flavours (smooth, accurate etc.) so you can switch between those without changing NOS mode and without having to flash the unit every time.

 

[MelonHead]

Purchased R2R1 last june then R1 came out with jumperless design. Feels like the former is like unfinished product.

You can have an upgrade for less then five percent of the original price (plus shipping).

 

[MelonHead]

Yah, classical music listeners do not really need to switch tracks every time and often listen to at least 3-4 tracks before changing album and so I also don't find pops too much of a deal except in testing different files from different albums. Despite the glitches with Audio-gd R2R, the DSD can simply be amazing too. Numerous times I have heard jaw dropping DSD sound that basically trashes all PCM sound: lustrous tone and atmospheric soundscape can be amazing. The piano tone is best I've heard. PCM comes very close on some great recordings and offers more micro-detail. I don't have enough orchestral recordings to test out the detail retrieval and handling complex music yet; But it is also very picky with DSD files. Any less than great/superb sound recording shows up nakedly. At this time I am not sure if my R2R7 is still burning in, which likely is a factor, so some albums still sound rather poor but it seems more due to the inherent less ideal quality of the recording that shows up nakedly. No sugar coating at all. DSD playback also needs to burn in separately in my opinion. I am running DSD+PCM on repeat non-stop day & night, with a set program about 2/3 time DSD, 1/3 PCM. My guess is R2R1 or R1 should come close to R2R7. If you can afford, the R-8 seems to be great bargain.

Well, I listen almost every kind of quality music, except some hardcore metal and hip-hop. I can find enjoyable or thought-provoking recordings in almost every genre. Can't explain myself my preference to DSD recordings, but whenever I compare the PCM and the DSD version of the same music, I tend to listen the DSD version more often.
A letter has been sent to Santa regarding the new DAC. As I have a few month until his arrival, I will send a few of my problematic tracks to Jos@Magna-Hifi, just to make myself sure about the final decision.
- currently listening: RHCP: Blood Sugar Sex Magic (Hi-Res) "naaaakeeed in tha raeen"-

 

[Chopin75]

Well, I listen almost every kind of quality music, except some hardcore metal and hip-hop. I can find enjoyable or thought-provoking recordings in almost every genre. Can't explain myself my preference to DSD recordings, but whenever I compare the PCM and the DSD version of the same music, I tend to listen the DSD version more often.
A letter has been sent to Santa regarding the new DAC. As I have a few month until his arrival, I will send a few of my problematic tracks to Jos@Magna-Hifi, just to make myself sure about the final decision.
- currently listening: RHCP: Blood Sugar Sex Magic (Hi-Res) "naaaakeeed in tha raeen"-

yah, and who knows what would be new from Audio-gd in a few months?! The Sabre 9038 is tempting but I am a but tired of Sabre sound, though in fairness the 9018 chip that I am used to is not great, and so it appears and based on great reviews, the sabre 9038 is supposedly amazing for DSD and I was told it has certain filters that get rid of the noisy DSD256 and can do DSD 512 with no problem. Audio-gd has made the D-77 serious, which is like the SD version (vs R2R) of his DACs. No doubt the dynamics. transparency. sound stage would likely be amazing. And I heard great the digital glare is gone, great reviews of the LKS004, Oppo 205, and exasound (but that uses 9028). But musicality, realism, not sure.....my feeling is Sabre/signa delta is more cinematic with dramatic punch, boasting a 140 db dynamic range. (interestingly DSD range is only 120 db, so this mainly benefits the PCM, hence cinematic benefit for blu-ray decoding etc.. Are there good reviews of the D-77 series?