Audio-gd product info: Incomplete
Jul 26, 2010 at 2:46 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 18

Bullseye

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Where are the technical specs of Audio-gd products? Where can I see them? I believe Kingwa and Audio-gd staff use measurement tools to build these products. Even Little Dot amps have Tech specs.
 
I am interested, as I might end up buying one of these products. I have read all the descriptions made of the products on their site, but as I am buying blind (can't test the product before buying), measurements is what I rely on. 
 
If anyone has RMAA (or similar) measurements of any Audio-gd product (mainly the C2 amp and FUN) I'd be interested in seeing those results. 
 
I'd appreciate as well if Kingwa could post the measurements and tech specs here. I might not be the only one interested.
 
 
Jul 27, 2010 at 9:05 AM Post #3 of 18

Bullseye

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Wow, I missed that..Who would have guessed that the "Specs" text (without any indication) on it was a link? :D
 
Yeah, well, that is some of it, but are there any FR graphs? In the format of RMAA or similar?
 
Jul 27, 2010 at 10:06 AM Post #5 of 18

Bullseye

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^Roger- Thanks for the help.
 
Jul 27, 2010 at 1:25 PM Post #7 of 18

Bullseye

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Indeed, leeperry.
 
That'd be very helpful.
 
Jul 27, 2010 at 1:41 PM Post #8 of 18

nikongod

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Quote:
yes, some THD RMAA measurements would be nice...like this you know:
http://www.firestone.idv.tw/rmaa/Cute_Beyond.htm
http://www.firestone-audio.com/rmaa/SPITFIRE.htm
 
or even better, using AP(see the bottom of the page): http://www.nekoaudio.com/index.php


Neither of those 2 (Cute_beyond or Spitfire) specify load impedance. Accordingly they are worse than useless. ideally they would test and display how they perform loaded with 32 and 300 ohm loads.
 
It is not uncommon for an amplifier that measures very poorly driving realistic loads (32ohms for example) to measure very well when driving a line input (typpically 10K ohms or more).
 
They are worse than useless because they appear on the surface to paint a conclusive picture and for a single application, driving a line in, they do. For the intended application (driving a headphone) they tell you nothing, but will mislead consumers.
 
Jul 27, 2010 at 1:54 PM Post #9 of 18

Omega17TheTrue

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Someone have already measure RMAA with audio-gd gear and it was average, the emu was excellent in everything BUT it does not mean it sound better, its only numbers (yes again), its like comparing FR headphone graph to determine if it sound better, it mean nothing and everyone know how graphs coming from the manufacturer is likely to be biased or based on a special condition.
 
Just saying.
smile.gif

 
edit : http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/435290/rmaa-test-results-for-audio-gd-dac-19mk3-and-reference-1
 
Jul 27, 2010 at 2:53 PM Post #10 of 18

Bullseye

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I disagree with the part of "its only numbers". They have a purpose and they are more relaiable than subjective opinion, IMO.
 
However I do agree with you on the part of info coming from manufacturers not being completely trustworthy. Even so I'd rather have that than nothing.
 
Quote:
Someone have already measure RMAA with audio-gd gear and it was average, the emu was excellent in everything BUT it does not mean it sound better, its only numbers (yes again), its like comparing FR headphone graph to determine if it sound better, it mean nothing and everyone know how graphs coming from the manufacturer is likely to be biased or based on a special condition.
 
Just saying.
smile.gif

 
edit : http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/435290/rmaa-test-results-for-audio-gd-dac-19mk3-and-reference-1



They are not useless, I'd rather say they are "incomplete", at least for what I am searching for. Even so I have seen elsewhere RMAA results of the cute beyond w/ 32 Ohm load and 100 Ohm load (even 300 Ohm load, if I remember correctly). It remained quite flat, as for what I recall. Might be wrong, though, but I think it is not the case, as I did my homework back then.
 
Quote:
Neither of those 2 (Cute_beyond or Spitfire) specify load impedance. Accordingly they are worse than useless. ideally they would test and display how they perform loaded with 32 and 300 ohm loads.
 
It is not uncommon for an amplifier that measures very poorly driving realistic loads (32ohms for example) to measure very well when driving a line input (typpically 10K ohms or more).
 
They are worse than useless because they appear on the surface to paint a conclusive picture and for a single application, driving a line in, they do. For the intended application (driving a headphone) they tell you nothing, but will mislead consumers.



 
Jul 27, 2010 at 3:09 PM Post #11 of 18

nikongod

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Quote:
They are not useless, I'd rather say they are "incomplete", at least for what I am searching for. Even so I have seen elsewhere RMAA results of the cute beyond w/ 32 Ohm load and 100 Ohm load (even 300 Ohm load, if I remember correctly). It remained quite flat, as for what I recall. Might be wrong, though, but I think it is not the case, as I did my homework back then.
 

 
When they are given as a reference point to someone who dosnt know to look for the other info they are misleading. I would stand behind useless: Who uses a headphone amp to drive a line-in type load? OK, excluding people who use headphone amps as preamps...
 
Perhaps Im alone, but I am not impressed by flat FR. The vast majority of gear has flat FR, curiously the vast majority of gear sounds "mneh" and average. Some gear (Wadia is known for it) has deliberately "very not flat" FR and by most reviews sounds outstanding. The THD and IMD of the amp into these 2 loads will tell you FAR more than the FR graph.
 
Jul 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM Post #12 of 18

leeperry

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Neither of those 2 (Cute_beyond or Spitfire) specify load impedance.


These were made using the free version of RMAA through the line-input of a high-end EMU soundcard, can't recall which model. These were initially posted here on head-fi by the designer who left Firestone to create his own company...Talladan or sumthing like that.
 
Someone have already measure RMAA with audio-gd gear and it was average, the emu was excellent in everything BUT it does not mean it sound better, its only numbers (yes again), its like comparing FR headphone graph to determine if it sound better, it mean nothing and everyone know how graphs coming from the manufacturer is likely to be biased or based on a special condition.
 
Just saying.
smile.gif

 
edit : http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/435290/rmaa-test-results-for-audio-gd-dac-19mk3-and-reference-1


very nice, thanks for the link! well, yeah those figures kinda prove my point..a friend of mine bought the FUN, and found it colored to death.
 
The FR graphs from headroom are indeed meaningless due to HRTF's and middle ear resonances, that are competely different for everyone:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/headphones.htm
 
"the coupling of high frequencies to the eardrum varies greatly among individuals.  It is influenced by the volume of the concha, the diameter and geometry of the ear canal, the eardrum impedance and other factors.  Lacking probe microphone measurements at the eardrum, the best way to equalize a headphone is by listening."
 
but RMAA/AP measurements can't really lie...a french guy was most perplex about the Burson discrete opamps, and managed to run some tests on a V2 module: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fjipihorn.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F12%2F19%2Fmodule-burson-une-nouvelle-redefinition-de-laop%2F&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
 
He calls them the biggest rip off in history. The Burson sound good but they are colored to death, just like all those discrete A-GD designs, and your link is great because it shows that all the fanboys who fill pages about "AHMAGAD, PCM1704 IN AUDIO-GD GEAR IS SO NEUTRAL I CANTZ BELIEVE IT" are missing the point completely. The A-GD gear is colored, and not "neutral" by a long shot! why not tubes while we're at it?
 
good figures don't mean jack, but bad ones mean that the sound *WILL* be colored..whether you'll like that color is completely subjective and up to you...but it's not "NEUTRAL" by a long shot, and it does steer you away from what's on the record! Neutral? I giggle.
 
here's some RMAA of the 3 A-GD discrete opamps...lol wth is up w/ MOON? "tubey" they said, huh? http://audio.an-pan-man.com/files/rmaa/earth_vs_moon_vs_sunv2_vs_lt1469.htm
 
Jul 27, 2010 at 3:36 PM Post #13 of 18

nikongod

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Quote:
IMVHO, a fully discrete design requires way too many active components in the signal path to be "neutral" by a long shot! why not tubes while we're at it?
 


All discrete means is that the components are separate.
 
There is no guarantee as to the number of active components in a chip-opamp. There are quite a few discrete SS designs with only 2 or 3 transistors directly in the signal path, plus a couple more as CCS.
 
Jul 27, 2010 at 3:44 PM Post #14 of 18

leeperry

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I agree and already edited that part before I read your post. I know a guy who made his own amp w/ a killer PSU and a single transistor...it sounds awfully good!
 
and Neko did a "coup de maître" on the DA100, I posted about it at the very bottom of this page: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/496735/firestone-bravo-reclocker-24-96-usb-transport-w-o-drivers/150#post_6807488
 
but the discrete designs from A-GD and Burson(OEM A-GD some ppl say), are colored to death...some call them DIY quality: http://ravenda.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/audiogddac19/  
 This DAC looks almost like a DIY unit

  
I'll take an uber low THD opamp full of highly optimized transistors and a very short audio path on a killer PSU...over zillions cheapo components soldered by hand on a long signal path anytime of the day. Scott Wurcer called major bs on the "0.1% matched transistors" argument.
 
anyway, A-GD and Burson discrete designs surely sound good...but they're colored to death. They pass the measurements very poorly and can't be called "neutral" by any stretch.
 

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