[FredA]

Looking inside of the two of them via the pictures, they look very much the same.
An amp requires volume control and amp components of whatever design he chooses. Whether its current-feedback, standard op-amp with Class AB driver or a full Class-A setup. The cost of a larger transformer is negligable, and the size of the two units looks comparable atleast from pictures. Chassis don't cost that much to justify 2x the price by only adding in a DSP and removing everything else.
Additionally the R2R-11 has every output that the R2R-2 has minus the XLR connectors (which would be around $2 to add, since its not actually balanced anyway). But the R2R-2 has no headphone jack, POT, or gain switches, input selector options, etc.

Its obvious that the R2R-11 is analog control and the R2R-2 is digital control, but the cost of such controls are not high. When companies like SMSL can make the M8 and sell it for $180 via massdrop while still making a profit, it shows that the DSP switching stuff doesn't cost much.
Hell I have a SMSL xUSB with XMOS implementation for output to i2S HDMI, Coaxial, and Optical for $60 and it has a screen and a select button for output & power.

As far as the NFB series.... hes selling something as Balanced which is not balanced. Dual Mono IS balanced. Everyone else selling a Balanced product is selling it with 2 DAC chips running in Mono mode for a balanced output.
Running a single DAC chip in 2 channel mode is the same as every other non-balanced device like a SMSL M8 for example. Just because he splits the output at the end for 2 XLR connectors doesn't mean anything as XLR is literally just a connector and you can buy RCA->XLR adapters for around $5.

As far as ACSS.... all the research I have done on it shows that it makes basically zero difference. It just transfers the current directly from one Audio-GD device to another Audio-GD device vs going through input/output buffers.
This would be the same as using any device with an internal DAC/Amp vs using something that is 2 separate units. At the end of the day no real difference is made unless you use some horribly terrible cables and manage to find some products that are terribly mismatched.

I've plugged all sorts of Amps into different DAC's and they don't sound different from unit to unit, only volume is different based on the DAC's output voltages.

The amp section is the same as the DAC's output stage in Audio-gd-s combos. You don't need much more than what i mentioned to add a headphone out. Maybe an additional gain control switching device to increase the gain when selecting the headphone out.

Transfos, the bigger, the more expensive. It's almost by the pound. Same for the chassis which is 2-3 times the weight for the r2r 2. Take a close look and compare all specs. Weight is specified as well as dimensions.

The altera dsp is not cheap. Quality connector are not cheap. All things mentioned justify twice the price at least.

As for ACSS, try a dac with it. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

The balanced statement refers to the output stage only. Balanced is not synonym to dual mono. Dual mono can be single-ended. Balanced means symmetric. A positive and a negative phase per channel all the way through, submitted to the same surrounding noise, implying ideally a symmetric layout, such that the noise gets mostly rejected when subtracting the two phases to derive the final signal.

 

[Jimster480]

The amp section is the same as the DAC's output stage in Audio-gd-s combos. You don't need much more than what i mentioned to add a headphone out. Maybe an additional gain control switching device to increase the gain when selecting the headphone out.

Transfos, the bigger, the more expensive. It's almost by the pound. Same for the chassis which is 2-3 times the weight for the r2r 2. Take a close look and compare all specs. Weight is specified as well as dimensions.

The altera dsp is not cheap. Quality connector are not cheap. All things mentioned justify twice the price at least.

As for ACSS, try a dac with it. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

The balanced statement refers to the output stage only. Balanced is not synonym to dual mono. Dual mono can be single-ended. Balanced means symmetric. A positive and a negative phase per channel all the way through, submitted to the same surrounding noise, implying ideally a symmetric layout, such that the noise gets mostly rejected when subtracting the two phases to derive the final signal.

So you are saying that the R2R-2 needs no Amp because it has an Amp built into it?
If you are saying that there is no actual Amp in the R2R-11 and that its just attaching a headphone output to the output stage of the DAC itself then that would be the worst design ever.
If the DAC has no output impedance because it already has an Amp output stage and lowered impedance, then it doesn't need an Amp at all because it already is one.
ACSS is only removing the buffer stage on input/output, this really doesn't do anything and every thread I read about this basically just has people fanboying over it while others who are objective saying that it makes no actual difference even when they tried it.
The altera DSP would add $100 to the price at most, and every other brand considers Balanced to be dual mono and not just a standard DAC with XLR connectors or a "Separate" analog stage.
I mean hell a Topping A30 has 2 separate analog stages.... its not a balanced Amp. Its just a quality built one.

Also the 2 DAC's have the same exact connectors, the only difference is the R2R-2 has some XLR connectors. Like I said thats about $2, if he wants to charge $25 then its still a $23 profit for $2 worth of goods.

There is nothing in the R2R-2 which justifies a 2.5x price increase, just the same with the NFB-11.28 vs 1.28/1.38 or 28.28/28.38.

In terms of his chassis, he has no fancy chassis the whole product looks like its made in a garage vs in an actual factory. There is no laser etching, every product is in the same standard box, etc.... I can understand the reason to make your stuff look DIY to save money, but considering hes charging a top tier price for DIY style products.....
It just rubs me the wrong way as to why he cannot actually explain the differences of his own products or why hes marketing such products as balanced when they are indeed NOT BALANCED despite fanboys suggesting that balanced is anything with different output stages...

I was looking forward to some real answers based on the respect that some people have for Kingwa on this forum, but for him to tell me to come back to head-fi and ask others if they like his products instead of actually explain himself means that we won't be doing business and this is a brand I cannot ever recommend to anyone in good faith.

 

[CJG888]

The R2R-11 definitely has a separate amp board. As I mentioned before, low manufacturing volume on the higher-end products is likely to drive costs substantially.

 

[FredA]

So you are saying that the R2R-2 needs no Amp because it has an Amp built into it?
If you are saying that there is no actual Amp in the R2R-11 and that its just attaching a headphone output to the output stage of the DAC itself then that would be the worst design ever.
If the DAC has no output impedance because it already has an Amp output stage and lowered impedance, then it doesn't need an Amp at all because it already is one.
ACSS is only removing the buffer stage on input/output, this really doesn't do anything and every thread I read about this basically just has people fanboying over it while others who are objective saying that it makes no actual difference even when they tried it.
The altera DSP would add $100 to the price at most, and every other brand considers Balanced to be dual mono and not just a standard DAC with XLR connectors or a "Separate" analog stage.
I mean hell a Topping A30 has 2 separate analog stages.... its not a balanced Amp. Its just a quality built one.

Also the 2 DAC's have the same exact connectors, the only difference is the R2R-2 has some XLR connectors. Like I said thats about $2, if he wants to charge $25 then its still a $23 profit for $2 worth of goods.

There is nothing in the R2R-2 which justifies a 2.5x price increase, just the same with the NFB-11.28 vs 1.28/1.38 or 28.28/28.38.

In terms of his chassis, he has no fancy chassis the whole product looks like its made in a garage vs in an actual factory. There is no laser etching, every product is in the same standard box, etc.... I can understand the reason to make your stuff look DIY to save money, but considering hes charging a top tier price for DIY style products.....
It just rubs me the wrong way as to why he cannot actually explain the differences of his own products or why hes marketing such products as balanced when they are indeed NOT BALANCED despite fanboys suggesting that balanced is anything with different output stages...

I was looking forward to some real answers based on the respect that some people have for Kingwa on this forum, but for him to tell me to come back to head-fi and ask others if they like his products instead of actually explain himself means that we won't be doing business and this is a brand I cannot ever recommend to anyone in good faith.

On the combo's output stage, the impedance is around 1ohm. Low enough to drive headphones. Seems to work: the master-11 is a very well regarded and reviewed combo, for one.

It seems like you have just found out about audio-gd. Where were you, all these years while i was enjoying my thousand of sublime hours with a Master-7 and Master-1?

I became a huge fan by acquiring the products, not following some crowd. I took a risk, bought the NFB-8 dac, listened to it for a minute and made the call that it was so obviously better than the w4s dac1 it was to replace, while costing just 200$ more. I heard some really amazing dynamics effects i did not know were possible, especially microdynamic. I liked the nfb-8 so much i decided to try the flagship, the now famous M7.

Again, the upgrade was obvious. I litterally fell in love with this dac. A music playing device like no other i had owned. More analog, to sum it up. As good with old recording as with modern ones. A fabulous machine, which i just put for sale after acquiring yet an even more fabulous one, the r2r 7, one of the 3 best dacs under 10k.

The beauty of freedom is everyone is allowed to like or dislike a product, recommend or not recommend it. Your opinion and mine were stated for each and everyone to consider. And they will freely buy or not audio-gd gears. That's just wonderful.

 

[FredA]

The R2R-11 definitely has a separate amp board. As I mentioned before, low manufacturing volume on the higher-end products is likely to drive costs substantially.

Not sure. Do you see the wire going all the way from the hp jack to the pre out?

Same output impedance for both. That's a clever way to save money. But that means you can't run both at same time because of gain difference.

 

[FredA]

The R2R-11 definitely has a separate amp board. As I mentioned before, low manufacturing volume on the higher-end products is likely to drive costs substantially.

I think Kingwa is letting these go at cost or very low profit so the word spreads out about how good these new r2r dacs are. What makes me say that is the dac boards are most certainly subcontracted and cost quite a bit of money because of the precision of the resistors, and the fact they have to be very consistently soldered. Plus the big cost of r&d.

 

[Jimster480]

I think Kingwa is letting these go at cost or very low profit so the word spreads out about how good these new r2r dacs are. What makes me say that is the dac boards are most certainly subcontracted and cost quite a bit of money because of the precision of the resistors, and the fact they have to be very consistently soldered. Plus the big cost of r&d.

I think actually its because of Soekris which has actually built their own models and basically seems to threaten everything about his business considering what hes offering at the prices hes offering them.

The R2R-11 definitely has a separate amp board. As I mentioned before, low manufacturing volume on the higher-end products is likely to drive costs substantially.

Yes lower volume can drive up costs, but considering what he sells he could definitely go over MOQ to get nice volume discounts just as he has so many PCM1704UK's despite them being discontinued for a while now.

On the combo's output stage, the impedance is around 1ohm. Low enough to drive headphones. Seems to work: the master-11 is a very well regarded and reviewed combo, for one.

It seems like you have just found out about audio-gd. Where were you, all these years while i was enjoying my thousand of sublime hours with a Master-7 and Master-1?

I became a huge fan by acquiring the products, not following some crowd. I took a risk, bought the NFB-8 dac, listened to it for a minute and made the call that it was so obviously better than the w4s dac1 it was to replace, while costing just 200$ more. I heard some really amazing dynamics effects i did not know were possible, especially microdynamic. I liked the nfb-8 so much i decided to try the flagship, the now famous M7.

Again, the upgrade was obvious. I litterally fell in love with this dac. A music playing device like no other i had owned. More analog, to sum it up. As good with old recording as with modern ones. A fabulous machine, which i just put for sale after acquiring yet an even more fabulous one, the r2r 7, one of the 3 best dacs under 10k.

The beauty of freedom is everyone is allowed to like or dislike a product, recommend or not recommend it. Your opinion and mine were stated for each and everyone to consider. And they will freely buy or not audio-gd gears. That's just wonderful.

You are right that everyone can have their opinion.
How you feel about your first Audio-GD I feel about my Topping DX7 because the resolution was actually much better even though I initially thought it wasn't worth it at all when I took it out of the box.

The problem with the world of audio is that too many brands are selling devices without any real discernible differences for tons of money simply because audiophiles are a group of people who often are very technically UN-savvy and willing to spend tons of disposable income on smoke and mirrors.

Maybe the R2R-2 really is so much more complex that it takes him all this extra time in hours to build it where the price has to be higher (doubtful) but if that is the case then he just cannot compete with Soekris and at this point it looks like I'll be ordering one of those new DAC's.

 

[FredA]

I think actually its because of Soekris which has actually built their own models and basically seems to threaten everything about his business considering what hes offering at the prices hes offering them.


Maybe the R2R-2 really is so much more complex that it takes him all this extra time in hours to build it where the price has to be higher (doubtful) but if that is the case then he just cannot compete with Soekris and at this point it looks like I'll be ordering one of those new DAC's.

Glad you have found a component you feel paasionate about in the Topping, i am sure it's worth its money.

Kingwa outsources the production of all his pcbs, most likely, same for Soekris. The thing is the surface mount components are soldered by a robot, so it's done also by a supplier. Both guys, Soren and Kingwa are the designers and intellectual owners of their respective boards.

If Kingwa was to produce a combo from the r2r 2, which he might do as some point, it would be costly because he would have to get all that is required to produce a new chassis format just for it. Even then, it would cost less that the top Soekris (dac1541) and would be competitive with it from what i could gather as info. The Dac1541 sells for 1500$ now. It's far from cheap. One should consider buying a Master-11 at that point (500$ more besides shipping) and other options, unless wanting a custom ladder dac combo absolutely, in which case Soekris has the only offering at that price point. For now.

 

[kvik]

There’s the Metrum Amethyst as well, at €1070 excl VAT a little cheaper than DAC1541, and a lot more expensive than R2R 11.

 

[Filmguerilla]

Hi guys, just wondering. Anyone here tried NFB11.28 or R2R.11 using Android TV as a source? Thanks!

 

[Jimster480]

Glad you have found a component you feel paasionate about in the Topping, i am sure it's worth its money.

Kingwa outsources the production of all his pcbs, most likely, same for Soekris. The thing is the surface mount components are soldered by a robot, so it's done also by a supplier. Both guys, Soren and Kingwa are the designers and intellectual owners of their respective boards.

If Kingwa was to produce a combo from the r2r 2, which he might do as some point, it would be costly because he would have to get all that is required to produce a new chassis format just for it. Even then, it would cost less that the top Soekris (dac1541) and would be competitive with it from what i could gather as info. The Dac1541 sells for 1500$ now. It's far from cheap. One should consider buying a Master-11 at that point (500$ more besides shipping) and other options, unless wanting a custom ladder dac combo absolutely, in which case Soekris has the only offering at that price point. For now.

The r2r-2 competes with the 1321 dac which is about half the price.
The 1541 is a custom R2R Ladder / Sign Magnitude design like the R2R-7 but with a amp included.
That really isn't like the older PCM1704UK designs.
Kingwa himself said that the new ladder system is better than the PCM1704UK designs and I believe it.

 

[kvik]

DAC1321 is currently €500/$590 shipped to my location (Norway), R2R 2 is $750 shipped, both excl VAT. That’s not half the price for 1321 vs R2R 2.

I think it’s fair to say, due to difference in weight and size, that the two have different user scenarios, the smaller is for office/bedside use, the larger for home/living room use.

Wthout you having listened to either, I don’t think you are in a position to cast judgement on whether the R2R 2 is overpriced compared to 1321.

 

[Jimster480]

DAC1321 is currently €500/$590 shipped to my location (Norway), R2R 2 is $750 shipped, both excl VAT. That’s not half the price for 1321 vs R2R 2.

Its $735 + $55 shipping.

That is $790, plus I'm sure that he will have some other paypal fee or something....
The Soekris is $615 shipped.
So you are right its not half the price.
But then again they have a DAC 1101 which just has USB but has basically the same sound specs for 363 Eur shipped.

I'm pretty sure I will order the Soekris today, since its on a promo price right now.

 

[kvik]

If you don't have the need for the headphone out (1101), I would wait for the 1321 to become available in a week or two (according to website). It's only €100 more, and I strongly suspect the new range (1321-1421-1541) to be considerably better than 1101.

 

[Jimster480]

If you don't have the need for the headphone out (1101), I would wait for the 1321 to become available in a week or two (according to website). It's only €100 more, and I strongly suspect the new range (1321-1421-1541) to be considerably better than 1101.

I'm pre-ordering the 1321.