Audio GD NFB-11.28 vs R2R 11
Oct 25, 2017 at 9:39 AM Post #121 of 2,569
I made an account to post in this thread. There aren't many reviews of the r2r 11 around and this thread was very helpful, I bought one because of it!

My r2r 11 arrived today having ordered it from MagnaHiFi in the Netherlands. I thought since this thread was so useful to me, I would post my thoughts here once I've had a decent listen and I'll compare it to my old DAC amp, the Oppo HA-2se, which uses the Sabre ES9028-Q2M, a lower power version of the chip used in the NFB 11.28 I believe - or at least comparable.

I was expecting something clearly vintage sounding but it doesn't sound drastically different to the Oppo that I'm used to. It does however make my Oppo seem detailed but relatively two dimensional. That's not to say the r2r 11 is not detailed at all, something which worried me slightly as someone here was comparing the r2r 11 to the Mojo and said that the r2r 11 had noticeably less detail than the Mojo. I'm aware that the Mojo is a better unit than the HA-2se but I don't feel like I'm trading details for musicality with the r2r 11. The r2r 11 has a 3D nature to its sound which - based on an hour of listening thus far - is subtle and nicely catches me off guard. I'm noticing things about my music that I hadn't before so that's the tell-tale sign of a good audio purchase isn't it?

I haven't done A/B testing between the two, I'll give the r2r 11 some time to 'burn in' and then I'll try a proper comparison in a later post.

And I don't know if it's still a talking point in this thread but I do get the 'popping' sound on WASAPI (event), ASIO and DS through the USB-2 out on my laptop.
 
Oct 25, 2017 at 9:59 AM Post #122 of 2,569
Hi ChaiTeac,

Good choice buying the R2R11... It is a very competent and unbelievable good sounding device, despite its size..

but ...Please keep in mind that it needs between 350 and 400 h of burn in before it behaves as it should.

/Jan
 
Oct 25, 2017 at 11:04 AM Post #123 of 2,569
Hi ChaiTeac,

Good choice buying the R2R11... It is a very competent and unbelievable good sounding device, despite its size..

but ...Please keep in mind that it needs between 350 and 400 h of burn in before it behaves as it should.

/Jan
As I read in your post on the first page! And like I say, I will leave it time to burn in before saying anything about it that's even vaguely thought out. I was merely giving some initial thoughts.

Although, I'd like to ask, how much change did you see in the r2r 11 from first listening to it and then after it burnt in? It sounds great already, I'm wondering how much better it will get!
 
Oct 25, 2017 at 11:46 AM Post #124 of 2,569
The main differences I have found, are from a infinite, a rather "two-dimension" flat and pretty boring presentation to a three-dimension one...and the complete soundimage matures more with deeper bass and an all over more even and true soundpicture.

By the way.. I use it now in my main speaker setup to compare it to bigger gears. I have always liked the dry engish speaker sound so I use Quad ESL63's with Gradient SW63's and their HiEnd filter XO @ 110Hz. Poweramps are Audio-gd's Master 3 for mid and treble and Master 2's for basses. For the moment and since a while, I use a NFB-28.38 as pre. I compare NFB-28.38 (ES9038Pro)/ Master7Singularity (w opa2140's as DC-servo's) and this little R2R-11 connected single ended..... and guess what.... This litte car-radio-sized R2R-11 dac/amp can absolutely compete with the other two bigger brothers. Of corse it comes out short but not with much. Annoyingly small difference, really.

In fact I could live a good music life with just the R2R-11 with decent amping and matching speakers.

I am sure You will surprised by it. Let it play and listen now and then.... and after a couple of weeks You will wonder "How the H...l can it sound this good?!!!

Enjoy.

/Jan
 
Oct 25, 2017 at 12:04 PM Post #125 of 2,569
Hi ChaiTeac,

Good choice buying the R2R11... It is a very competent and unbelievable good sounding device, despite its size..

but ...Please keep in mind that it needs between 350 and 400 h of burn in before it behaves as it should.

/Jan

Hey Jan! I have a NFB-11 delivered in April this year (just missed the NFB11.28) and I read your comments regarding burn in with interest.
Does the 350 - 400 hour estimate also apply to the NFB-11? Considering also that these gears are supposedly burned in for 100 hours before delivery.

At 2 hours use per day, every day (very rough estimate) that's 25 weeks or 6 months before it's properly burned in.
I would say that I must be nearly there, and can't say I have heard any discernible difference in sound quality or presentation.

Let me qualify that by saying that I was able to enjoy the unit more as time passed, as my ears got used to it's sound.
And how it allowed me to hear more in my music as I became accustomed to the level of detail it could deliver.

But I cannot say this was in any way due to the unit itself sounding any different.
Of course, over a period of 6 months gradual changes can be impossible to pick up.

Whatever the case may be, this little amp/dac never ceases to please.
I often use it as a DAC only into my Woo WA3 and the synergy is excellent to my ears.
In fact, it might be a better DAC than headphone amp, and it's a terrific headphone amp!
 
Oct 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM Post #126 of 2,569
Hi capetownwatches,

No, the NFB-11 needed approx 200-250 h in total to mature and to sound its best.

The fact that many owners of hi grade audio equipment and never really know what their gear really can is a pity. A skilled audio engineer designing knows this for sure. The components of choice will have to mature (burn in) before they perform as planned. You can call it "a body of knowledge" this experienced and known change of components behavior before and after the needed burn in. So what I am trying to say is that when You choose components for let say an amplifier, You design a "after burnin- state of those components. A new produced poweramp often sounds a bit edgy and a bit forced and rushy... It calmes down during the burn in. During this time You will have to adjust biases and offsets to make it work as intended. This is what Kingwa's staff is trimming during the 100 or 200 h (depended of gear) preburn at Audio-gd before the gears are sent out to us. (In dac's the xo has to burnin to stabilise.Very important, Usually approx 2 weeks ~350h)

I think You are part true regarding Your gradual increasing pleasure with the sound. 2h a day will not do much good. 22 h cold state. Burn in is power on longer period of time

I always leave the gear on playing 24/7 for the whole burnin in period. It is the only way I can spot when the gear "reborns" and sounds as intended.

/Jan

 
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Oct 25, 2017 at 12:46 PM Post #127 of 2,569
Hi capetownwatches,

No, the NFB-11 needed approx 200-250 h in total to mature and to sound its best.

The fact that many owners of hi grade audio equipment and never really know what their gear really can is a pity. A skilled audio engineer designing knows this for sure. The components of choice will have to mature (burn in) before they perform as planned. You can call it "a body of knowledge" this experienced and known change of components behavior before and after the needed burn in. So what I am trying to say is that when You choose components for let say an amplifier, You design a "after burnin- state of those components. I poweramp often sounds a bit edgy and a bit forced and rushy... It calmes down during burn the in. During this time You will have to adjust biases and offsets to make it work as intended. This is what Kingwa's staff is trimming during the 100 or 200 h (depended of gear) preburn at Audio-gd before the gears are sent out to us. (In dac's the xo has to burnin to stabilise.Very important, Usually approx 2 weeks ~350h)

I think You are part true regarding Your gradual increasing pleasing with the sound. 2h a day will not do much good. 22 h cold state. Burn in is power on longer period of time

I always leave the gear on playing 24/7 for the whole burnin in period. It is the only way I can spot when the gear "reborns" and sounds as intended.

/Jan

I agree absolutely - many owners never get to fully appreciate what their gear can do.

I did leave the unit powered on 24/7 for about a week after I first got it, but since then I do not leave it powered up all the time.
I do notice that it does sound better after about 30 min playing.

Would you recommend that I can leave the unit powered on for long periods?
Such as maybe a weekend (3 days)?
That way it is always ready to sound optimum!

I would guess that this could be detrimental to the long term reliability of the unit, such as certain parts wearing out more quickly?
 
Oct 25, 2017 at 1:01 PM Post #128 of 2,569
I see it like this:

1. To keep the gear power on during the whole needed burn period is an investment in sound quality!
2. After the burn in period is complete (Your or mine personal opinion) it is a good idea to power it on when You are about to take the dog for a walk (30 min). And as You have spotted, it sounds better after approx 30 min warm up. After listening, power it off. This will give You the best for a long time.

I have designed and built plenty of gear through the years and have as a princip to build with oversized components just to have the choice to leave the gear powered on and without risk to aging or burning them up prematurely.
 
Oct 25, 2017 at 1:11 PM Post #129 of 2,569
Hi capetownwatches,

No, the NFB-11 needed approx 200-250 h in total to mature and to sound its best.

The fact that many owners of hi grade audio equipment and never really know what their gear really can is a pity. A skilled audio engineer designing knows this for sure. The components of choice will have to mature (burn in) before they perform as planned. You can call it "a body of knowledge" this experienced and known change of components behavior before and after the needed burn in. So what I am trying to say is that when You choose components for let say an amplifier, You design a "after burnin- state of those components. A new produced poweramp often sounds a bit edgy and a bit forced and rushy... It calmes down during the burn in. During this time You will have to adjust biases and offsets to make it work as intended. This is what Kingwa's staff is trimming during the 100 or 200 h (depended of gear) preburn at Audio-gd before the gears are sent out to us. (In dac's the xo has to burnin to stabilise.Very important, Usually approx 2 weeks ~350h)

I think You are part true regarding Your gradual increasing pleasure with the sound. 2h a day will not do much good. 22 h cold state. Burn in is power on longer period of time

I always leave the gear on playing 24/7 for the whole burnin in period. It is the only way I can spot when the gear "reborns" and sounds as intended.

/Jan


Sorry, but I beg to differ.

If I believe in burn in regarding headphones or speakers. I never noticed some kind of improvement with electronics components but placebo...

People can claim this or this sounds better after X period of burn in... But if it isn't measurable...

http://archimago.blogspot.fr/2014/03/measurements-does-break-in-happen-for.html?m=1
 
Oct 25, 2017 at 1:38 PM Post #132 of 2,569
Reading all the replies here somewhat makes me laugh.
The NOS design has less details vs a over sampling design and is worse than a sabre layout.
Additionally electronic burn in does relatively nothing in 99% of cases.
Kingwa does burn in before sending the devices just to quell all myths and you guys still cling to 200+ hours (LOL).
Literally all of you posting this stuff have no idea how electronics work and how everything you are talking about is scientific myth.
ChaiTeac initial impression of "almost no different" is the only valid impression. Further listening in trying to justify the purchase will condition your mind to believe things which are not true.

The differences are typically going to be in the analog stage with slightly different frequency response / impedance.
 
Oct 28, 2017 at 6:07 AM Post #133 of 2,569
Reading all the replies here somewhat makes me laugh.
The NOS design has less details vs a over sampling design and is worse than a sabre layout.
Additionally electronic burn in does relatively nothing in 99% of cases.
Kingwa does burn in before sending the devices just to quell all myths and you guys still cling to 200+ hours (LOL).
Literally all of you posting this stuff have no idea how electronics work and how everything you are talking about is scientific myth.
ChaiTeac initial impression of "almost no different" is the only valid impression. Further listening in trying to justify the purchase will condition your mind to believe things which are not true.

The differences are typically going to be in the analog stage with slightly different frequency response / impedance.

Hey Jimster - maybe you don't realize it but the tone of your post is somewhat deprecatory and frankly comes off as rude.
Or maybe that was your intention - either way, even though I agree with some of what you say (see my own post), you should dial back the prescriptive language a bit.

I and many others here have a very good idea of, and significant experience in "how electronics work".
Simply because someone holds a view that is different to your own does not give you licence to demean that view.

You are welcome to your own (strongly held) opinions, but preferably share them in an amicable and non-confrontational manner.
That way we might all learn something.
 
Oct 29, 2017 at 1:11 AM Post #134 of 2,569
Hey Jimster - maybe you don't realize it but the tone of your post is somewhat deprecatory and frankly comes off as rude.
Or maybe that was your intention - either way, even though I agree with some of what you say (see my own post), you should dial back the prescriptive language a bit.

I and many others here have a very good idea of, and significant experience in "how electronics work".
Simply because someone holds a view that is different to your own does not give you licence to demean that view.

You are welcome to your own (strongly held) opinions, but preferably share them in an amicable and non-confrontational manner.
That way we might all learn something.
You are right, the post shouldn't be so confrontational.
I do want people to learn and understand, its what we are all here for.
There are many people on this forum though who choose myth over reality and cling to their myths with a death grip, refusing to see any other points.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 4:57 AM Post #135 of 2,569
Just saw the Z review of the r2r in which he says that it might accentuate the noise floor. Can anybody say anything on the matter? Noise floor can be a real big problem for me in some recordings (acoustic orchestrations by Glenn Gould might be the finest example of how can a masterpiece be ruined by it)
 

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