[Articnoise]

no dithering- not recommended....now THAT is a challenge if I ever saw one.

Jriver recommend you to NOT select “No dithering”…. Easy peasy

 

[marcelnl]

Jriver recommend you to NOT select “No dithering”…. Easy peasy

I got that bit, I woould find it tempting to try...and find out WHY not

 

[anroj]

[QUOTE="marcelnl, post: 15932329, member: 133115"] [USER=394970]@anroj[/USER] eas there something you wanted to add to the quotes?
@anroj don't respond here (inside the quotes)
[/QUOTE]
Only here (below the quotes)

My apologies. Nothing to post.

 

[Articnoise]

Today I changed to DI-20V3.933. I believe this to be my favourite FW. The V4.07 and V076 OTOH was not for me, and I actually preferred to output directly from my Innuos instead of the DI20HE while using them. The Innuos Zenith Mk3 is excellent by itself, no doubt, very transparent, sweet and direct sounding. Now with Innuos + DI20HE and the V3.933 I get all this from Innuos but also thunder bass and musician more clearly made out of flesh and blood.

 

[FredA]

Is not i2s technically supposed to be the lowest jitter transfer from a computer?

I wonder why Kingwa did not offer the ethernet i2s option and how it differs from HDMI?

The HDMI cable is simply used to transfer the i2s signal components in a balanced form, allowing less signal contamination. The S/N ratio is what determines the error rate of the transmission, which is normally not a concern cause near zero. But also, it is what determines the noise-induced jitter. The hdmi is less prone to crosstalk then the rj45 because of balanced transmission in part. The proof of the pudding is in the listening. Hdmi sounds better than rj45 over the same length of cable. As soon as you do anything with a digital signal, be it processing, routing or transmitting, jitter is introduced. Hdmi degrades less.

 

[FredA]

Today I changed to DI-20V3.933. I believe this to be my favourite FW. The V4.07 and V076 OTOH was not for me, and I actually preferred to output directly from my Innuos instead of the DI20HE while using them. The Innuos Zenith Mk3 is excellent by itself, no doubt, very transparent, sweet and direct sounding. Now with Innuos + DI20HE and the V3.933 I get all this from Innuos but also thunder bass and musician more clearly made out of flesh and blood.

Yep, i think bass digs lower and the sound has more flesh without it being exagerated. I like it too, probably my favorite.

 

[Oepsie]

*Has any one compared the DI-20 to a Matrix XSPDIF 2 and if so what were the differences in final sound based on input to dac?

*Second question, does anyone here use the DI-20 for Spdif to Spdif only and what do they think? Say for a streamer or CD transport.

I ask these questions because,
The Xspdif 2 made a great improvement to my computer based audio feeding my upgraded Yggdrassil via AES/EBU cable. (Even a tad bit better with the uptone LPS1.2)
Now just recently I bought a Bluesound Node 2i for a secondary system and was so impressed its ease of use and decent sound that I had to try it out on the main rig with the yggy upstairs.. Although it sounds damn good feading the yggy via coax its not quite "there" so to say compared to the computer based Xspdif2.

Is the DI-20 the missing piece of my puzzle to get that little streamer up to par?

Not saying I'll never use computer based audio again its just I'm really enjoying the ease and convenience of a streamer. I refuse to dish out big $$$ for one..

My friend Bech had the xspdif 2 with an uptone iso regen and seperate lps which indeed sounded very good. In my opinion, the di-20 (even non HE) that he bought was a lot better: more natural sound, better instrumental sound, more detailed, more impact in the bass - simply better on all accounts.

I my system, I borrowed his xpdif2 to compare to my gustard u12, and I actually preferred the u12 - the xpdif2 had a kind of veil effect in my system which was strange because when trying the u12 in my friend‘s system, the xpdif was the clear winner.

When I borrowed the di-20, i bought one the same night!!

 

[Articnoise]

Yesterday it sounded the best I have got it to sound with my gear . It was like someone had put in VAC Signature 200 in my system. Very full, rich and dense sound without losing transparency and transient speed or sounding soft like V075 and V076. Time will tell if I will appreciate the sound as much with all types of music and after the sensation/honeymoon period is over. Because as you all know one evening is just a fling, a couple of weeks just a honeymoon, it first after that we normally see/hear things for what they really are .

 

[marcelnl]

The HDMI cable is simply used to transfer the i2s signal components in a balanced form, allowing less signal contamination. The S/N ratio is what determines the error rate of the transmission, which is normally not a concern cause near zero. But also, it is what determines the noise-induced jitter. The hdmi is less prone to crosstalk then the rj45 because of balanced transmission in part. The proof of the pudding is in the listening. Hdmi sounds better than rj45 over the same length of cable. As soon as you do anything with a digital signal, be it processing, routing or transmitting, jitter is introduced. Hdmi degrades less.

Are you sure it's balanced? I2S is nothing more than a data transfer format introduced by Philips in the 80-ies, " An I2 S bus uses three signal lines for data transfer: a frame clock, a bit clock, and a data line." In the article https://www.analog.com/media/en/tec...echnical-articles/MS-2275.pdf?doc=an-1327.pdf I found on the quick as I wanted to look up I2S to compare to what I thought I knew about it there is not a single word balanced.
Are you perhaps referring to they way some manufacturers implement I2S as LVDS? Also not sure how you arrive at HDMI sounding better than an RJ45 implementation, Metrum (and various others) have specifically selected RJ45 connection for I2S, with reason.

 

[Articnoise]

Are you sure it's balanced? I2S is nothing more than a data transfer format introduced by Philips in the 80-ies, " An I2 S bus uses three signal lines for data transfer: a frame clock, a bit clock, and a data line." In the article https://www.analog.com/media/en/tec...echnical-articles/MS-2275.pdf?doc=an-1327.pdf I found on the quick as I wanted to look up I2S to compare to what I thought I knew about it there is not a single word balanced.
Are you perhaps referring to they way some manufacturers implement I2S as LVDS? Also not sure how you arrive at HDMI sounding better than an RJ45 implementation, Metrum (and various others) have specifically selected RJ45 connection for I2S, with reason.

The I2S over LVDS that Audio GD, PS audio and many other uses a HDMI cable to transfer, is balanced.

Am not @FredA but I have tested RJ45 vs HDMI back in the day when I had the Master 7. At that time the Master 7 only came with RJ45, and it was Scott aka @DACLadder that made his own I2S LVDS board which he used in his Master 7. He sold it to a few other Head-fier. Many liked the sound better and Kingwa who is open for anything that enhance sound started to made his own I2S LVDS board which we could buy and install ourselves. I bought the board and fund it to sound a bit better than RJ45, both using Master 7 and OR5.

 

[Wynnytsky]

The I2S over LVDS that Audio GD, PS audio and many other uses a HDMI cable to transfer is balanced.

do you have any links on this? I never heard of anything balanced other than XLR.

@marcelnl
I would have thought that if I2S works for rj45 and hdmi, then it must use at most 8 of HDMI's 19pins
But that is not the case [according to this document PinkFaun sent me last year]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fiXGAGorpewNYwVaUWdccVC4hjhqqX-nHNLzVwLwLdc/edit?usp=sharing

Worksheet #2 is hdmi, worksheet #3 is rj45. If anyone wants the orig XLSX then let me know


@zoophaugus
In January when I brought the DI20HE to a friends home who had his system dialed in with a xpdif2, the DI20HE was not a drop in replacement. The Matrix interface is very concise/present/punctual in the upper registers. I recall he tamed that signature with dark cables, mullards, stacked USB filters, etc, so the DI20 was sounding sleepy by comparison. Something similar happened when I went to a friends house who ran USB right into his DirectStream.

I'm impressed the Matrix still hold's people's interest. I'd love to have a shootout with a Denafrips Iris -- if someone brings one I can guarantee them free parking

 

[FredA]

Are you sure it's balanced? I2S is nothing more than a data transfer format introduced by Philips in the 80-ies, " An I2 S bus uses three signal lines for data transfer: a frame clock, a bit clock, and a data line." In the article https://www.analog.com/media/en/tec...echnical-articles/MS-2275.pdf?doc=an-1327.pdf I found on the quick as I wanted to look up I2S to compare to what I thought I knew about it there is not a single word balanced.
Are you perhaps referring to they way some manufacturers implement I2S as LVDS? Also not sure how you arrive at HDMI sounding better than an RJ45 implementation, Metrum (and various others) have specifically selected RJ45 connection for I2S, with reason.

The transmission protocol that is used has nothing with HDMI per say. It only uses the HDMi cable and connector. It is not compatible with HDMi and must not be hot-connected/disconnected.

See this page for the pin definition used by audio-gd(all manufacturer using the hdmi cable for balanced i2s transmission do not have the same, but audio-gd and ps-audio is the same, Singxer too) :
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R720/R720EN_Use.htm

 

[FredA]

do you have any links on this? I never heard of anything balanced other than XLR.

See my post. Of course, it is balanced. As soon as you read data+ and data- in the description of the pin-out it becomes obvious. That's old info for me. There are pins used for ground as in most balanced transmission and there are. 8 pins for the mirrored signals.

 

[Articnoise]

do you have any links on this? I never heard of anything balanced other than XLR.

@marcelnl
I would have thought that if I2S works for rj45 and hdmi, then it must use at most 8 of HDMI's 19pins
But that is not the case [according to this document PinkFaun sent me last year]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fiXGAGorpewNYwVaUWdccVC4hjhqqX-nHNLzVwLwLdc/edit?usp=sharing

Worksheet #2 is hdmi, worksheet #3 is rj45. If anyone wants the orig XLSX then let me know


@zoophaugus
In January when I brought the DI20HE to a friends home who had his system dialed in with a xpdif2, the DI20HE was not a drop in replacement. The Matrix interface is very concise/present/punctual in the upper registers. I recall he tamed that signature with dark cables, mullards, stacked USB filters, etc, so the DI20 was sounding sleepy by comparison. Something similar happened when I went to a friends house who ran USB right into his DirectStream.

I'm impressed the Matrix still hold's people's interest. I'd love to have a shootout with a Denafrips Iris -- if someone brings one I can guarantee them free parking

Some links I fund with a quick search. BTW USB and AES-EBU are also balanced e.g. differential signals are transmitted.

https://jameshfisher.com/2017/01/08/usb-data-wires-differential-signaling/

https://www.tempoautomation.com/blo...le-ended-and-differential-signals-pcb-layout/

http://www.just-hifi.com/Audio-Gd-Master-7-Discrete-Fully-Balanced-DAC-PCM1704_10479839-111.html

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134950.0

Edit: more links about differential vs. single-ended signaling

Don't forget that LVDS = Low-voltage differential signaling .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-voltage_differential_signaling

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/is-i2s-standard/15088/13

 

[Wynnytsky]

TLDR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
^F balanced (0 hits)
^F differential (10 hits)



I'm struggling to understand the relationship between balanced and differential. This wiki paragraph says Balanced Audio is just the name given to the analog implementation of differential. Differential is employed by all these digital formats: twisted pair Ethernet, PCI Express, DisplayPort, HDMI, USB. It said the term balanced implies that the impedance at both ends is the same, but it doesn't go further and state this is not the case for single ended.

I will say all this time I thought the 3rd pin was just some neutral or ground, and whatever value got added in transit was subtracted from the destination signal. But they actually xmit an inverted version of the signal at the source, and the "differential receiver" computes error as (signalPos + signalNeg)/2, and subtracts that from signalPos.