[FauDrei]

The Ref5 and Ref7 have more differences than the DSP module so switching the modules to listen for a difference would not satisfy the experiment.  The goal would be to try to isolate what makes the Ref7 sound better [or different] putting them side by side you will find not only a difference in the amount of R-Cores but a difference in the amount of chips and total circuitry.

OK, other things too, but... Po-wer-Su-ply... Po-wer-Su-ply... Po-wer-Su-ply...

 
We are not talking here about swapping 1A linear regulated wallwart with 2,5A linear regulated wallwart. We are going here from 9 separately regulated PSU group sections to 21 groups of which are 19 cascaded and paralleled and with twice as much filtering capacitance. This may sound like a foreign language or exaggeration to some, but if you when you experience a substantial sound improvement by swapping just a couple PSU caps in your amp - you suddenly became aware of the magnitude of improvement such overbuilt supplies bring to the party.
 
Just look at the pictures: RE-5 and RE-7 share the same DAC chips, gain modules, output modules, DSP-1...
 

I could make a system based on the ref 5 sound better than some setups based on the ref 7. I know I could definitely make a ref 7 setup sound worse than... a lot of things

by matching it to the very wrong amp and headphones.

 
Interesting... Can you give an example of, IYO, wrong amp and headphones for RE-7, while the same amp/headphone combination do sound good with another source?

 

[IPodPJ]

I highly doubt the RE-7 would be a bad choice for anyone regardless of what amp and phones they use.

 

[.Sup]

Quote:

I highly doubt the RE-7 would be a bad choice for anyone regardless of what amp and phones they use.

REf7 is never a bad choice but sometimes there are components that suit certain amps and headphones better. Synergy. An analytical DAC and analytical amp don't suit everyone.- (just an example) 

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

I highly doubt the RE-7 would be a bad choice for anyone regardless of what amp and phones they use.

I agree.
 
If someone hears something bad after they put a Ref7 in their system they need to change the rest of their gear.
 
Its a Dac you can build a system around.

 

[haloxt]

Quote:

Interesting... Can you give an example of, IYO, wrong amp and headphones for RE-7, while the same amp/headphone combination do sound good with another source?

I wanted to say cables as well, but left it out because I consider cables part of the amp (especially internal wiring) and headphones. Something I really like about my sparrow is that it sounds good with stock cables or any cables I stick to it, the only cable I care about with the sparrow is the headphone cable to not choke off the sound. I can't say the same about gear starting from dac19 and up.
 
Amps that might sound bad with a very high end neutral dac are very low end neutral amps because the mismatch makes a sound that suggests what could be a life-like reproduction but ruined by the amp. Very bad headphones with a very high end neutral dac are headphones that easily get overwhelmed by complexity or transients. A less fully resolving dac may be preferable with such amps and headphones.
 
And I did connect most of my gear to my H120 mp3 player with analog in and out, and done other less serious mismatches to test, so I feel confident I could... make the ref 7 sound such a way that I would be blacklisted by audio-gd if they caught me doing it

. I am not really trying to discourage people from getting higher tier gear, I just want to let people know they really should be taking gear synergy and "accessories" seriously if they are going to spend so much money on a dac. Many times I've seen people buy new dac's, amp's, and headphones, when, in my opinion, changing up cheaper accessories might have been better, both money-wise and sound improvement-wise.

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

REf7 is never a bad choice but sometimes there are components that suit certain amps and headphones better. Synergy. An analytical DAC and analytical amp don't suit everyone.- (just an example) 

People around here associate "harsh" with "analytical" for some odd reason.  The RE7 is certainly not harsh in any way, and the upper end of the FR is rolled off for this very reason.
 
A DAC that is either harsh or muddy will require an amp that synergizes well with it, but that's only because the DAC is doing something wrong.  If a DAC does what it's supposed to do it will mate well with anything.  So too will the amp.  Leave the coloration for your headphones.

 

[FauDrei]

Amps that might sound bad with a very high end neutral dac are very low end neutral amps because the mismatch makes a sound that suggests what could be a life-like reproduction but ruined by the amp. Very bad headphones with a very high end neutral dac are headphones that easily get overwhelmed by complexity or transients. A less fully resolving dac may be preferable with such amps and headphones.
 
And I did connect most of my gear to my H120 mp3 player with analog in and out, and done other less serious mismatches to test, so I feel confident I could... make the ref 7 sound such a way that I would be blacklisted by audio-gd if they caught me doing it

. I am not really trying to discourage people from getting higher tier gear, I just want to let people know they really should be taking gear synergy and "accessories" seriously if they are going to spend so much money on a dac. Many times I've seen people buy new dac's, amp's, and headphones, when, in my opinion, changing up cheaper accessories might have been better, both money-wise and sound improvement-wise.

I see your point Haloxt...
 
My view is: headphone/headamp combination that sounds bad with RE-7 will sound bad with, pretty much, any source. That "pretty much" is there because there is a possibility that aforementioned bad headphone/headamp combo complement it's flaws with flaws of a bad source... and you get more acceptable distortion out of such system.
 
It is paradoxical that you might get RE-7 or any similar high-endish source and had lukewarm experience with it. Like f.e. "My RE-7 is just slightly better than my DacMagic" kind of line... It can happen... It happens. So you let go of your RE-7 "because it is too expensive and cumbersome alternative to your DacMagic" while not figuring out that with your crappy digital transport, slow and undercurrented headamp and mediocre headphones you CAN NOT do better. You only can change one type of distortion with more pleasant kind of distortion...
 
...and some people do prefer distortion.
 
I had not intended to criticize DacMagic here. DacMagic was mentioned as an example I am familiar with of source that may sound close to a high-end source in specific circumstances and not scale up when the rest of the system becomes serious.

 

[borrego]

 
Quote:

I got the Ref 5 maybe 1 1/2 months ago and the Ref 7 a couple of days ago.  I doubt if I will be swapping any modules.
 

According to the post on the Chinese Audio-gd forum, DSP-1 shipped after [size=12pt]16th July should have V4 firmware. So there is a high chance that you have the same V4 firmware in both of your DSP-1.[/size]
 
[size=12pt]If it is the case, then there is an obviously difference between between the RE5 and RE7.[/size] So indeed the RE7 is of better value than the RE5. Luckily, I have ordered a........ NFB1

 

[IPodPJ]

I am going to soon buy the new DSP-1 upgraded module.  Then once I get it I'll send my old one back for an upgrade, if there is a real difference in sound quality.  It never hurts to have a backup DSP-1 module.

 

[regal]

Quote:

I am going to soon buy the new DSP-1 upgraded module.  Then once I get it I'll send my old one back for an upgrade, if there is a real difference in sound quality.  It never hurts to have a backup DSP-1 module.

How much for the upgraded DSP-1?  Do you know if it works with the RE1 ?

 

[FauDrei]

It works in RE-1.
 
It is $150, but you get your money back if you ship your old DSP-1 to A-GD. So, basically, you only pay for shipments.

 

[gavszero]

I wonder how the NFB - 7  Sabre32 ES9018 DAC will compare to the REF 7 ... I hope I can get the funds together before the REF 7's are out of stock ...

 

[FauDrei]

Oh, BTW... Regal, Peete & other DIY inclined members...
 
Fancy a DAC-3x DIY experience? You can get DAC-3x boards and old aluminum DAC enclosures for cheap...

 

[FauDrei]

Oh, second BTW...
 
The DSP-1 software is now V5.

 
To quote KingWa himself: "Major improvements like the V4 and V3, respectively, in particular the sound field and positioning, sound sophistication."
 
So folks, you can start now wanting it badly...

 

[IPodPJ]

Wow.  That was fast.