[ab initio]

   
they are quite accurate and meaningful to me.

You could do us all a favor and translate those terms into actual quantities. At the very least, "Stressful" and "(not) Harmonic" are lacking in the glossary of terms, which is the bare minimum for a term to even begin to have any sort of actual meaning when describing an analog or digitized waveform.
 

  physical mechanism in a cable?! wow, way to go Heinstein.

Yes. If you need an introduction, wikipedia has a page here: Physical Sciences. You might be particularly interested in the 2nd- and 3rd-to-last bullet points that cover electricity&magnatism and sound.
 
 

  cable's job is to transmit signals - that's it!

Exactly, I don't know how this concept seems to get so unnecessarily confused with the kinds of things that actually are on the frontier of human knowledge and engineering, for example, things like quantum computing, the Higgs boson, turbulence, or the Riemann Hypothesis.
 

  What Audio Rainer was perhaps alluding is that your science bible may not covering the entire story on metal conductivity, audio signal, and everything else involved in the matter.  it's reasonable.

But it's not reasonable! Just because you guys assert that you don't understand physical mechanism involved in the transmission of an electrical signal along a wire doesn't mean that there aren't people who do understand these concepts. The principles for understanding all the basics of audio, from digital signal theory to the material science of semiconductor materials are taught in undergraduate level classes. The current body of knowledge says that one should not expect copper speaker wire versus silver plated copper speaker wire to cause a detectable difference in the transmitted audio signal. It is unreasonable. Just because folks think they hear a difference in sighted listening, it does not mean that there is an actual physical difference in the sound reproduction.
 
There are free course materials from a somewhat well known university available here. LINK TO FREE EDUCATION. All of the fundamentals for understanding the process of sound reproduction can be found there. One just needs to give the effort to learn them. I understand that reading up on the details is not for everyone, but lack of motivation does not make one's assertions automatically valid.
 
Cheers

 

[Frihed89]

The differences people hear is also (maybe mainly) about the problems of measuring what we hear, after the ears and brain have done in terms their reception, amplification, filtering and other forms of their processing of an audio signal (the perception of a sound) and the language we use to describe what we hear.  Measured sound and the perception and then the description of the sound, or an image, or a smell, or a .... are two very different things.  To make consistent measurements of what we hear across individuals is, to my mind, impossible.  It's just short of comparing how happy people are. It's not about physics.

 

[elmoe]

  The differences people hear is also (maybe mainly) about the problems of measuring what we hear, after the ears and brain have done in terms their reception, amplification, filtering and other forms of their processing of an audio signal (the perception of a sound) and the language we use to describe what we hear.  Measured sound and the perception and then the description of the sound, or an image, or a smell, or a .... are two very different things.  To make consistent measurements of what we hear across individuals is, to my mind, impossible.  It's just short of comparing how happy people are. It's not about physics.

 
How is it then that all these people hear cables sound the same? Read some cable reviews - the general consensus is that gold cables sound lush, warm yet fast, silver sound detailed and quick, copper sounds warm and muddied...
 
It's interesting how all these adjectives are pretty accurate descriptions of the metals' colors/properties... both of which have absolutely nothing to do with sound signature.
 

 

 

[Astropin]

Amazing how so many can hear a difference when they know which cable they are listening to but the difference completely disappears when they don't know which cable they are listening to.

 

[Lenni]

   
How is it then that all these people hear cables sound the same? Read some cable reviews - the general consensus is that gold cables sound lush, warm yet fast, silver sound detailed and quick, copper sounds warm and muddied...
 
It's interesting how all these adjectives are pretty accurate descriptions of the metals' colors/properties... both of which have absolutely nothing to do with sound signature.
 

 

 
last time I peaked behind the amp, my ICs looked bright dark-pinkish colour - not sure what sound signature I should be hearing...

 
 
I wonder, if you were to take a sample of silver metal, or copper, and were to show it to some random people and ask them to write down both physical properties and associative qualities of the metal - out of a thousand people how many would come up with "detailed and quick" or "warm and muddied". My guess is probably no one. zero.
 
sorry, but your ideas about the general consensus is nonsense. 

 

[elmoe]

last time I peaked behind the amp, my ICs looked bright dark-pinkish colour - not sure what sound signature I should be hearing...:rolleyes:


I wonder, if you were to take a sample of silver metal, or copper, and were to show it to some random people and ask them to write down both physical properties and associative qualities of the metal - out of a thousand people how many would come up with "detailed and quick" or "warm and muddied". My guess is probably no one. zero.

sorry, but your ideas about the general consensus is nonsense. 

The only thing that's nonsensical is your supposed ability to hear sound differences in cables

 

[Lenni]

it's a shame, because you guys are missing out on one of most, if not the most essential component in a good audio system: good quality cables.

 

[ab initio]

  it's a shame, because you guys are missing out on one of most, if not the most essential component in a good audio system: good quality cables.

Not true! I have some really good cables:

1. I use these for DAC->crossover and crossover->powered speakers/sub, using the shortest possible length for each connection. These things are built like tanks.
2. I use these for stacking my DAC and headphone amp. I can't find anything shorter or better built.
3. And I've got this cable which came with my customized Paradox headphones.

These are all good quality cables, built with solid engineering principles, and in the case of the paradox cable, some custom, hand-crafted sexiness.
 
Cheers

 

[gyzimaki]

  Quote:

Originally posted by Chops All I have to say is that I highly doubt that Monster Cable, KimberKable, Cardas, Analysis Plus, Sraightwire, and all those other major companies made their millions just on myths and psychoacoustics.

religion has made trillions on just myths alone. i believe in both jesus and high end cables though.

Well, exactly. People NEED to believe in something. In a lot of things, actually - if you're looking to capitalize on that, you just need to have no scruples and figure out what it is they wanna believe in. Then you create a plausible version of what you're gonna be targeting that specific audience with, and just let them buy it. And believe in its efficiency.
 
Belief is a very strong motivator.

 

[elmoe]

  it's a shame, because you guys are missing out on one of most, if not the most essential component in a good audio system: good quality cables.

 
I've had interconnects that cost up to a thousand dollars for a pair, that had raving reviews from magazines etc. They were no different than a cheap monoprice cable in terms of sound quality. What's truly a shame is people spending more than 50 bucks on a pair of cables believing they have some magical properties that will make their music sound better.
 
What's even more shameful is people who believe cables are the most essential component in a good audio system. You're literally wasting hundreds if not thousands of your hard earned dollars on a fairytale, when you could be putting that money towards things that actually matter in your audio chain. It's your money and ultimately, do what you will, eventually you will be curious enough to test things out for yourself and you'll realize how much money you've wasted on hocus pocus.

 

[nigeljames]

IMO cables are part of the system and the signal chain and therefore are important. However there is a lot of snake oil in cable design and I would never buy expensive ( > £500 ) cables.
I do buy good quality cables, even made my own, but do feel that very expensive cables are just a scam.

 

[elmoe]

  IMO cables are part of the system and the signal chain and therefore are important. However there is a lot of snake oil in cable design and I would never buy expensive ( > £500 ) cables.
I do buy good quality cables, even made my own, but do feel that very expensive cables are just a scam.

 
Buying good quality cables or making your own because you want something sturdy, or for aesthetic reasons is one thing. But thinking these cables will change sound quality is just not true. Ultimately, your Toxic Cables Silver Widow will sound exactly the same as a 10 dollar monoprice cable.
 
For example, the Toxic Cables Silver Widow 6ft HD800 headphone cable costs around 150£, that's 250usd give or take. The total cost for parts, counting large, is not above 50usd. Which means you are paying 200USD strictly for a little braiding, a little soldering and some heatshrink, all things that no doubt you could've easily done yourself. And Toxic Cables is one of the cheaper cables you can buy as well, that's saying alot in my opinion. Four times the price of parts for maybe an hour's worth of work that most people who can use a soldering iron could do themselves fairly easily, that seems overly expensive to me.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Nice to see a thread like this still alive and not locked. Most of these talks degrade into 2nd grade level name calling, then closed.


I have only the opinion that folks should try different stuff to see what works for them. There are so many variables in everyone's system. After years of not thinking cables could make a difference I found out that they do, in contrast to mainstream scientific testing and theory?

Some gear does not scale with cables but some does. Some people hear it and some don't. Just the fact that some believe makes a reason to test stuff.

 

[nigeljames]

   
Buying good quality cables or making your own because you want something sturdy, or for aesthetic reasons is one thing. But thinking these cables will change sound quality is just not true. Ultimately, your Toxic Cables Silver Widow will sound exactly the same as a 10 dollar monoprice cable.
 
For example, the Toxic Cables Silver Widow 6ft HD800 headphone cable costs around 150£, that's 250usd give or take. The total cost for parts, counting large, is not above 50usd. Which means you are paying 200USD strictly for a little braiding, a little soldering and some heatshrink, all things that no doubt you could've easily done yourself. And Toxic Cables is one of the cheaper cables you can buy as well, that's saying alot in my opinion. Four times the price of parts for maybe an hour's worth of work that most people who can use a soldering iron could do themselves fairly easily, that seems overly expensive to me.

 
Firstly I respectfully request that you do not tell me what I do or don't hear!!
 
Secondly I feel you are totally dismissing the amount of work that can go into making quality cables. I request that you contact Frank at Toxic Cables and ask him how long it takes to complete 1 Silver Widow Cable.
 
Thirdly Yes cables do make a difference sometimes a big difference. How do I know? simply because I have heard the differences. I few months ago, soon after I received my Toxic cables, I showed the difference between the SW and stock cables on my HE-6's to a friend, who also did not believe cables made a difference.
He clearly heard a difference when I changed cables and heard no difference when I did not (when he was blindfolded). Thank fully he clearly preferred the SW  

 
If you can not hear any difference between cables then that is more an issue with your hearing or the lack of resolution of your system or maybe the cables being compared are too similar.
I admit I have heard expensive and cheap cables using the same core material, normally copper, where it's been hard to tell the difference but to say that all cables sound the same is just ridiculous and wrong and reminds me of a CD player review many years ago that said all CD players sound the same. 

 

[elmoe]

   
Firstly I respectfully request that you do not tell me what I do or don't hear!!
 
Secondly I feel you are totally dismissing the amount of work that can go into making quality cables. I request that you contact Frank at Toxic Cables and ask him how long it takes to complete 1 Silver Widow Cable.
 
Thirdly Yes cables do make a difference sometimes a big difference. How do I know? simply because I have heard the differences. I few months ago, soon after I received my Toxic cables, I showed the difference between the SW and stock cables on my HE-6's to a friend, who also did not believe cables made a difference.
He clearly heard a difference when I changed cables and heard no difference when I did not (when he was blindfolded). Thank fully he clearly preferred the SW  

 
If you can not hear any difference between cables then that is more an issue with your hearing or the lack of resolution of your system or maybe the cables being compared are too similar.
I admit I have heard expensive and cheap cables using the same core material, normally copper, where it's been hard to tell the difference but to say that all cables sound the same is just ridiculous and wrong and reminds me of a CD player review many years ago that said all CD players sound the same. 

 
Your first request is respectfully denied. There is scientific proof that cables do not have a sound signature, if you want to argue the contrary, that's fine, so long as you provide proof of your own. "My ears can hear it" is not an argument. The issue isn't what you can or can't hear, as there is nothing "more" or "less" to be heard in the first place. The issue is the expectation bias of your brain that makes you believe you hear something "better" simply because after spending that kind of money and seeing such a pretty looking cable, you expect it to.
 
Secondly, no, I am not dismissing it. I've made plenty of cables myself. If you're interested in the specifics of how Frank at Toxic Cables makes his cables, you can feel free to contact him yourself. If you feel that paying 200 dollars for labor is fair, that's fine, it's your money. I'm allowed to disagree.
 
No, cables do not make a difference. What you think you know is irrelevant unless you provide substantial scientific proof of your claim, if you heard any difference while blindfolded, and assuming the proper procedure was used (that's doubtful), then one of the cables used had design flaws. My hearing is actually quite good, it's been tested quite a few times. My system is also quite resolving, but that doesn't really matter as I have demo'd cables costing thousands of dollars on systems costing close to hundreds of thousands of dollars, and my conclusion remains the same.
 
This is always the prime argument of the cable believer that has no substantiated proof to his claims: if others can't hear it either their hearing is bad or their system sucks. Sorry to tell you but your expensive cables sound exactly the same as the cheapest properly built cable you can find.