[rutter]

I thought you wrote a few posts above that the improvement is marginal over the LCD-X?

 

[commtrd]

That was before close to 100 hours of listening time accrued. I am simply blown away with these headphones. Admittedly the Hugo 2 and GLMk2 contribute as well.
The absolute synergy is palpable. Life is better with great audio! Only problem is I tend to lose a lot of sleep now.

 

[commtrd]

I just realized that with LCDi4 and LCD4z, I could conceivably never need to buy another headphone at all unless one of these breaks.
Wow. What a profound statement.

 

[rutter]

Well, for $4000 you'd hope to be able to say that... those of you who spend very big, how much of your disposable income goes into it?

 

[Dan Lee]

You guys. Bass boost is present in True-Fi and unlike in Reference 4 you can actually boost the treble alone. In Reference 4 you can boost the treble only by tilting the whole frequency response. You eliminate distortion by lowering the volume by the highest value of the EQ. Reference 4 caps the manual adjustment at that value, meaning it provides no further lowering than True-Fi. Manually going under that value means there is distortion. If you had never tried Reference 4 of course by looking at that image you might think there is a lot more to it. The fact is there isn't much, and for whatever reason a bunch of you keep claiming false or nonsensical things. Just setting the record straight. If you find something worthwhile about Reference 4 fair enough, but be factually accurate in what that is. Finding value in reducing the EQ effect through dry/wet and having a plug-in for certain programs are the only conceivable reasons. One thing you shouldn't be doing is spouting complete nonsense. It seems that Dan Lee never noticed three exceedingly simple things about True-Fi (bass boost, treble boost, lower volume to avoid clipping), one that is ironically exclusive to it in boosting treble without affecting the rest of the frequency range.

The problem with Reference 4 is exactly that it doesn't provide more meaningful control. You can't just look at an image to determine that.

I feel like you really suck at reading. You should probably go back and read exactly the words that I wrote instead of just "spouting complete nonsense" in an unending attempt to play the devils advocate. Everything you say comes off with nothing but negativity. I did not base my statements about ref 4 on an image. It was simply the image that peaked my interest to go and actually try it. I based my statements on listening to ref 4 and comparing it to true-fi. When listening to my LCD-X through true-fi I heard distortion no matter what settings i played with and yes I was aware you could adjust both treble and bass and did so which only served to increase the distortion I heard as it did the same even when I lowered it. I am not an inept moron I can see what is being done to the curve same as you but no matter what I did I still heard distortion. If you listen to it and do not hear distortion bra Fing vo for you. When I listened the distortion was 100% there no matter the settings or changes I made. Your ears are quite obviously are not as clearly able to discern differing levels of sound quality as evidenced by another thread I and you are both apart of in which you admit openly to being unable to hear differences in dac and amp quality. Maybe thats a low blow but it seems your every effort in both this thread and the other is to create discension and to belittle those who share a passion for this hobby. So perhaps instead of trolling these threads just to be an A ss you should maybe take up a different hobby as your passion for this particular one seems rather wasted. At the very least if you truly do enjoy this hobby as I do fix your sound chain before you go around making statements and suggestions about audio quality when you are, according to your signature, listening to you LCD-Xs through a question mark. I dont know about the rest of you but I've not heard of that particular amp/dac. There is a reason you have trouble hearing the subtle differences in sound quality through your headphones and it probably lies with that ? as the LCD-Xs have an overwhelming tendency to get better and better with every upgrade made to your sound chain. I dont know maybe you were just unaware this "exceedingly simple" information. So maybe next time dont call me out by name when you are incapable of making educated statements of truth but only negative inaccurate statements of "complete nonsense" as you so eloquently accused me of doing when your entire post is just that. So just to "set the record straight" first of all I left the "wet" setting at 100 where it starts so you are wrong to ASSUME that I did otherwise. Second I used no plug-in of any kind yet another "nonsensical" inaccuracy in your post. Third I tried lowering the db floor and raising it and found it to have little effect on distortion yet another mistake in your flawed assumptions of my listening sessions based on an uneducated guess at what I may or may not have been doing. Your entire post is you doing the very thing that you seem to be calling me out for. But again I'm just trying to... "set the record straight." Seeing as you struggle with the whole reading and understanding thing allow me to clarify and dumb it down for you. The "simple" fact of the matter is that whether or not one is more complex then the other matters very little to me in any way. If ref 4 litterally had only one button to click and did what it did I would have written the same thing which you would have understood had you the ability to pay attention to what you were reading. Lastly if you used both true-fi and ref 4 and saw no apparent advantages to ref 4 you must not have been paying attention very closely but that doesnt seem that far off what I would expect from you considering your track record with spouting moronic and inept statements of complete and utter "nonsensical things." P.S. Just throwing out a couple ideas for hobbies you could consider in the future. Option 1 reading as this would hopefully, with much practice, help you gain the ability to pay better attention and gain some sort of grasp on what the writer is trying to say. Option 2 you could get involved in your local community center of not being a pitch. Oops I spelled that last word incorrectly just replace that p with a b and you might get what I was trying to say. Hey that can be lesson 1 for your new reading hobby.

 

[rutter]

That being one giant paragraph is very hard for me to read and I see you're going off the rails so I'll sum things up this way. With respect to how both applications work facts are facts. Bass boost and lowering volume to avoid clipping/distortion work the same way. True-Fi is the app that actually enables you to boost treble whereas Reference 4 forces you to change the whole frequency response, which I found ridiculous. Additionally Reference 4 allows you to reduce the EQ effect through dry/wet, has the strange frequency response tilt I've been referring to with what you claimed about treble adjustment, another thing that seemed to make no difference and was I think something about latency, and has I think one additional target curve you can use to change the EQ which probably most would agree isn't better for listening. And it gives you a plug-in(s?). Like it or not that is indeed setting the record straight, dispassionately and objectively. Both apps should also be using the same default average EQ profiles and should be compatible with individual EQ profiles resulting from sending your headphones in for measurement.

There is one other possibility, setting your lack of understanding about how the applications are supposed to work aside. And that is that the applications are not working as is conveyed they should be working. The thing is, given how most of you seem to be at best unfamiliar with True-Fi and at worst willfully ignorant, that is questionable. But better safe than sorry, so I'll ask in the Sonarworks thread.

PS

I recommend that you go to the Sonarworks website and see what you can glean there about whether one is supposed to sound better than the other across the features that they share. What you report about distortion clearly contradicts what Sonarworks states, so this goes beyond the tangents you go on. As for what DACs and amps I've tried, I've actually beaten the stuff in your signature (Taurus MKII over the Mjolnir 2), and have had some eye-opening experiences with other headphones (the HD800S) that inform me how well the LCD-X actually scales and what it lacks innately or needs enormous spending to ameliorate, which is not at all to the credit of the headphone. You're exaggerating, which is something current owners tend to do.

 

[Dan Lee]

That being one giant paragraph is very hard for me to read and I see you're going off the rails so I'll sum things up this way. With respect to how both applications work facts are facts. Bass boost and lowering volume to avoid clipping/distortion work the same way. True-Fi is the app that actually enables you to boost treble whereas Reference 4 forces you to change the whole frequency response, which I found ridiculous. Additionally Reference 4 allows you to reduce the EQ effect through dry/wet, has the strange frequency response tilt I've been referring to with what you claimed about treble adjustment, another thing that seemed to make no difference and was I think something about latency, and has I think one additional target curve you can use to change the EQ which probably most would agree isn't better for listening. And it gives you a plug-in(s?). Like it or not that is indeed setting the record straight, dispassionately and objectively. Both apps should also be using the same default average EQ profiles and should be compatible with individual EQ profiles resulting from sending your headphones in for measurement.

There is one other possibility, setting your lack of understanding about how the applications are supposed to work aside. And that is that the applications are not working as is conveyed they should be working. The thing is, given how most of you seem to be at best unfamiliar with True-Fi and at worst willfully ignorant, that is questionable. But better safe than sorry, so I'll ask in the Sonarworks thread.

here again you refuse to get the point of the message I was trying to convey. I do not claim to understand the way that soonarworks true-fi or ref 4 work only that like it or not there is a very noticeable difference in sound quality between the two. whether you believe there is or isnt does not matter. If you cant tell a difference between the two that is good for you as you can save some money but for me the difference was so drastic that I am still listening to it right now and am still amazed by the fact that I hear no distortion in the EQ for the first time ever despite trying a rather large number of EQs over the years. I dont know why you insist on being so negative on a forum that people come to in an effort to discuss a hobby they love and are truly passionate about. You basically called most of us involved in this thread ignorant and unknowledgable. But you forget that I openly admitted to being unknowledgeable in the area of EQ and still am but either way I like the sound I am getting from sonarworks ref 4 demo whether right or wrong it sounds better by far then true-fi "to my ears at least." I am not trying to make blanket statements for everyone on the thread but for me it is that way and yes I havent studied EQ much which is why I was asking questions about it to begin with.

It is not my desire to get into a battle with you via writing back and forth in a thread on a forum that has been a great asset to me in this awesome hobby that we all share in that so few are even aware of. At the same time I wont brush your insults aside and just be cool with it. But Ive made myself clear at this point and have no intention of further explaining what has already been made clear. I hope you find a different way to enjoy this life and the joys of purity of sound that we here all strive for.

And by the way all these people you refer to as willingly ignorant have provided a great deal of insight and education on this thread and others. They actually try to help people and further the pleasure of our shared past time while you seem to seek only to belittle and point out the areas in which someone writes something that you percieve to be an error. So feel free to keep worrying about how sonarworks EQs function and I will just keep enjoying the beautiful sound its feeding to my ears.

 

[rutter]

You're going off topic and misinterpreting things. And yes, I'm preoccupied with value and with how things are rather than rolling on a lush meadow of jolly. And yes, misleading people into spending more money unnecessarily is an issue. Not to mention how blithely you move on from the fact that if you are indeed correct, in contradiction to what Sonarworks states, many people using True-Fi are damaging their hearing and perhaps their headphones. But keep being an angel.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/son...bration-software.762969/page-78#post-14498598

Let's see if there's an official response or what others think.

 

[rutter]

By the way, as for the DAC and amp question mark, I'm back to the very strange combo I have enjoyed most- Modi Multibit with Jotunheim ($650). I spent $1250 on a Gumby and another $1000 on a used Taurus MKII that would've cost me $1500 new, both of which I recently sold due to being underwhelmed and dissatisfied with both individually. I had bought an $800 CMA400i that I found thoroughly inferior to the Mimby and Jotunheim, and have listened to a $1300 CMA600i. Have tried a $600 portable DAC/amp that sounds indistinguishable from its $200 little brother from what I could tell, which sounded way too much like the $2250 "monster" stack, and which, hilariously, was brought to my attention and I had to agree with that it sounds worse than a laptop with an HD650! I swear on me mum's life that the $1250 Gumby is not just a straightforward upgrade of the $250 Mimby. I don't just sell upgrades and settle. None of you cupcakes would've informed me of this stuff, happiness and YMMV all the way. I've got a problem with that, and find bringing this stuff up at the minimum just as worthwhile as what others post. People waste money and do not get the most satisfaction they could get unknowingly. Not to mention my headphone experiences. Funny thing is pit the participants of one thread against those of another based on competing products and go figure what is what. Very useful!!!! Not my idea of what this is all about. This forum isn't a mere social gathering.

By the way, I was part of fanning this Sonarworks stuff. While I was complaining about the LCD-X Sonarworks was brought up by someone (in response to a specific complaint of Hifiearspeakers), which a few of us picked on, and which has subsequently spread to the benefit of most of us who have tried it. This is one way in which dissatisfaction can lead to improvement. Go figure there was indeed something to complain about. Commtrd can brag about his 4z being what we're chasing all he wants, we got some much cheaper serious improvement. Sonarworks for the LCD-X remains the best $55 I've spent by far (the Mimby is the only value that comes anywhere close), and it might very well be reproducible or approximatable for free.

 

[514077]

I feel like you really suck at reading. You should probably go back and read exactly the words that I wrote instead of just "spouting complete nonsense" in an unending attempt to play the devils advocate. Everything you say comes off with nothing but negativity. I did not base my statements about ref 4 on an image. It was simply the image that peaked my interest to go and actually try it. I based my statements on listening to ref 4 and comparing it to true-fi. When listening to my LCD-X through true-fi I heard distortion no matter what settings i played with and yes I was aware you could adjust both treble and bass and did so which only served to increase the distortion I heard as it did the same even when I lowered it. I am not an inept moron I can see what is being done to the curve same as you but no matter what I did I still heard distortion. If you listen to it and do not hear distortion bra Fing vo for you. When I listened the distortion was 100% there no matter the settings or changes I made. Your ears are quite obviously are not as clearly able to discern differing levels of sound quality as evidenced by another thread I and you are both apart of in which you admit openly to being unable to hear differences in dac and amp quality. Maybe thats a low blow but it seems your every effort in both this thread and the other is to create discension and to belittle those who share a passion for this hobby. So perhaps instead of trolling these threads just to be an A ss you should maybe take up a different hobby as your passion for this particular one seems rather wasted. At the very least if you truly do enjoy this hobby as I do fix your sound chain before you go around making statements and suggestions about audio quality when you are, according to your signature, listening to you LCD-Xs through a question mark. I dont know about the rest of you but I've not heard of that particular amp/dac. There is a reason you have trouble hearing the subtle differences in sound quality through your headphones and it probably lies with that ? as the LCD-Xs have an overwhelming tendency to get better and better with every upgrade made to your sound chain. I dont know maybe you were just unaware this "exceedingly simple" information. So maybe next time dont call me out by name when you are incapable of making educated statements of truth but only negative inaccurate statements of "complete nonsense" as you so eloquently accused me of doing when your entire post is just that. So just to "set the record straight" first of all I left the "wet" setting at 100 where it starts so you are wrong to ASSUME that I did otherwise. Second I used no plug-in of any kind yet another "nonsensical" inaccuracy in your post. Third I tried lowering the db floor and raising it and found it to have little effect on distortion yet another mistake in your flawed assumptions of my listening sessions based on an uneducated guess at what I may or may not have been doing. Your entire post is you doing the very thing that you seem to be calling me out for. But again I'm just trying to... "set the record straight." Seeing as you struggle with the whole reading and understanding thing allow me to clarify and dumb it down for you. The "simple" fact of the matter is that whether or not one is more complex then the other matters very little to me in any way. If ref 4 litterally had only one button to click and did what it did I would have written the same thing which you would have understood had you the ability to pay attention to what you were reading. Lastly if you used both true-fi and ref 4 and saw no apparent advantages to ref 4 you must not have been paying attention very closely but that doesnt seem that far off what I would expect from you considering your track record with spouting moronic and inept statements of complete and utter "nonsensical things." P.S. Just throwing out a couple ideas for hobbies you could consider in the future. Option 1 reading as this would hopefully, with much practice, help you gain the ability to pay better attention and gain some sort of grasp on what the writer is trying to say. Option 2 you could get involved in your local community center of not being a pitch. Oops I spelled that last word incorrectly just replace that p with a b and you might get what I was trying to say. Hey that can be lesson 1 for your new reading hobby.

You know? I get through this thread faster and without all the rubbish, leaving only the gold, just by ignoring/blocking his posts. Life's to short. Don't play his game. I don't see what he's saying and I have a better day for it.

 

[rutter]

You can see what I'm saying by visiting Sonarwork's website and taking your time going through the options of the two apps just like I did. Apparently that's the rubbish though. Nonetheless, I'm very interested in seeing clarification in the Sonarworks thread. If there is any truth to the contrary claims made here I would hope that prompts corrective action. Reference 4 is not supposed to sound better than True-Fi, and True-Fi is definitely not supposed to allow distortion. Reference 4 is supposed to provide extra options and supposedly control, which in my opinion it sorely lacks at the moment. The discussion here doesn't seem to be around any of those extra options improving sound quality. It's around Reference 4 almost magically or inexplicably sounding better and even being better for your hearing and headphones, all of which is problematic as it runs contrary to what is presented as fact by Sonarworks.

 

[commtrd]

You know? I get through this thread faster and without all the rubbish, leaving only the gold, just by ignoring/blocking his posts. Life's to short. Don't play his game. I don't see what he's saying and I have a better day for it.

Amen brother. Couldn't have said it clearer and more to the point. Perpetual negativity and argumentativeness sucks. What doesn't suck is just putting on my headphones and listening to music without ever having to fiddle with software to EQ. Over the many thousands and thousands of hours I use my gear, the cost is actually almost nothing. So it is worth just buying good stuff up front and get on with it.

 

[rutter]

And the above post is doubly funny as the majority of us are finding great value in Sonarworks EQ for the LCD-X. Hence the topic of "fiddling with software to EQ" is much more constructive than repeatedly posting how a headphone costing 3-4 times as much sounds better. Thanks for helping us, Sherlock.

 

[514077]

Amen brother. Couldn't have said it clearer and more to the point. Perpetual negativity and argumentativeness sucks. What doesn't suck is just putting on my headphones and listening to music without ever having to fiddle with software to EQ. Over the many thousands and thousands of hours I use my gear, the cost is actually almost nothing. So it is worth just buying good stuff up front and get on with it.

And I'd love to try it. But I could never get Sonarworks to work for me. Wish I could if only to decide to buy it.

 

[rutter]

...Why not post what your problem is or email their support? Commtrd actually wants you to try the Audeze 4z, by the way, and having that work for you would be the least of your worries. Unfortunately thousands of hours of idle listening doesn't pay for the headphones. If that were the case I think we'd all be rocking that Sennheiser Orpheus or whatever it is, and like I like saying, having this hobby wrapped up in no time.