[Mboom]

This or a lcd-x ?

 

[Strayngs]

Buying your headphones based solely on measurements would be like buying every burger based on the type of bun. It is part of the equation but certainly too many people judge headphones based on this…..

 

[XVampireX]

Buying your headphones based solely on measurements would be like buying every burger based on the type of bun. It is part of the equation but certainly too many people judge headphones based on this…..

While I agree with you, unfortunately you don't always have the chance to listen to them before you buy, so there's that.

 

[sp33ls]

While I agree with you, unfortunately you don't always have the chance to listen to them before you buy, so there's that.

Correct. It's important to take in many factors (like other measurements), including even several subjective impressions, in order to make a more informed decision.

I think some are commenting on how it seems there are those who look at a FR chart and buy based primarily on that one data point alone. IMO, that would be foolish. Not to mention, the data isn't normalized, so sometimes you'll find differing FR for the exact same product.

Yes, 2+2=4, but it seems common for some to misinterpret or alter the numbers because their bias is looking for that '4', if that makes any sense.

Humans are biased, and hard numbers can be misleading sometimes. I worked with data scientists for awhile... I've got some stories about how data can be interpreted.

 

[cwoo]

While I agree with you, unfortunately you don't always have the chance to listen to them before you buy, so there's that.

Fortunately you can always return them if you do not like them.

 

[AudiophileJargon]

Buying your headphones based solely on measurements would be like buying every burger based on the type of bun. It is part of the equation but certainly too many people judge headphones based on this…..

If anything this fr excites me... Not super far from an HD6xx/600. The dip/recession from 3k-8k does not scare me away, and I am not a huge fan of eq. Gotta hear it first. I'll give some quick impressions from my listen at canjam if anyone cares lol

 

[DarginMahkum]

It ridiculous if you start to determine one headphone's sound by reading graph of distortion. I have no intention to debate to you because I teach myself to always try first before comment about audio stuff.

For me it is ridiculous that there are people that believe otherwise, that think they know something above it all. Nothing different from believing in conspiracy theories. It is a borderline religious attitude we have here on HeadFi. Because billions of people believe that the mighty God created bla bla and then took a rest, or some guy took off from the deset to the space on his camel to meet the God, because it is billions of people, you expect me to stop and say "but maybe they have a point, let's investigate that camel". Nothing different here, you want to believe in the "unknown" talent the HeadFi citizens have that can get passed the facts. In fact, in many cases the otherwise is true: Measuerment devices are much more sensitive and precise than human auditory system.

Clearly audio stuff need to be heard with ears, not to look with eyes (to read graph).

Because that is how you engineer a product. You don't go "by the ear". You don't build an amplifier without checking distortion or without calculating your circuit. Anyone that says that they are playing it by the ear, is just saying that he was not able to deal with the technical background so decided to take his chance and use marketing tools to trick the customers hiding his technical incompetence.

If you so proud of engineering and distortion then why you buy T+A HA200? Any amplifiers from Topping, SMSL, and Singxer will slaughter it when we read the graph (crosstalk, THD, dynamic range, etc) and they come with much much much cheaper price.

Because I can.

Buying your headphones based solely on measurements would be like buying every burger based on the type of bun. It is part of the equation but certainly too many people judge headphones based on this…..

If we go by the food, reading the measurements is like checking if your packaged food has expired, or checking the ingredients if there are chemical preservatives inside, or making sure that there is nothing that causes allergic reactions to you (like many people have this with nuts, walnuts etc.). Measurements give you the fundemental ingredients. If a cook uses double, triple the amount of salt, or completely misses it, it will taste bad. Don't bring me the "but I don't check it every time to understand the taste", because they are not comparable. You don't buy amplifiers and headphones 3 times a day. Food production has been nearly there since emergance of civilazition. The engineering / cooking behind is much cheaper and much less complicated. And you are used to what to expect. You don't expect a horribly salty hamburger, because you do it often and you are used to what to expect. You don't make a hobby of buying a hamburger or a milk. You don't make it into a hobby. You don't get a collection of pizza boxes at home. You can even produce it at home.

If it has a peak or a dip in the measurements it will turn into bad sound, period.

 

[KMann]

I trust FR graphs up to 3khz, beyond that, I do not unless I have a compensation curve I know works for the specific ear pad geometry and know where the subjectively flat response is (not the same as a preference curve). Also target response does not directly translate from one measurement rig to another. Trying to blindly fit frequency response to match a target response on a rig would be pleasing to the eyes for sure, but definitely not my ears.

 

[Bimbleton]

Can I ask a question about frequency responses? In Jude’s measurements, the HD650 seems to have a more elevated treble response than the LCD-5. Yet the HD650 is definitely not bright.

How should this be interpreted?

 

[chargedcapacitor]

Measurements do not lie. It will be a bright headphone with forwarded mids and a bit bass shy. In addition, the distortions are significantly higher than the Stealth. Think this is not the gamechanger I've been waiting 2 years for. Too bad Audeze.

I vote to just let these comments slide without responding to them; they serve a small purpose, mean little to nothing, and contribute even less.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

Can I ask a question about frequency responses? In Jude’s measurements, the HD650 seems to have a more elevated treble response than the LCD-5. Yet the HD650 is definitely not bright.

How should this be interpreted?

The 650 is one of the smoothest, least fatiguing headphones I've ever heard, and would never consider it bright by any stretch of the word. Chalk it up to another "Don't base everything off just a graph, and listen with your own ears" mindset here.

Rarely would I ever find myself bothering with anyone who bases everything off a graph. They help, but ultimately it falls on our ears to determine what we like.

I never would've thought I'd like the LCD-X over a 2 Classic (I prefer smoother, warmer). Yet the LCD-X blew me away personally. The graphs alone would've actually turned me off from them if it's all I cared to think about.

 

[sp33ls]

For me it is ridiculous that there are people that believe otherwise, that think they know something above it all. Nothing different from believing in conspiracy theories. It is a borderline religious attitude we have here on HeadFi. Because billions of people believe that the mighty God created bla bla and then took a rest, or some guy took off from the deset to the space on his camel to meet the God, because it is billions of people, you expect me to stop and say "but maybe they have a point, let's investigate that camel". Nothing different here, you want to believe in the "unknown" talent the HeadFi citizens have that can get passed the facts. In fact, in many cases the otherwise is true: Measuerment devices are much more sensitive and precise than human auditory system.

Because that is how you engineer a product. You don't go "by the ear". You don't build an amplifier without checking distortion or without calculating your circuit. Anyone that says that they are playing it by the ear, is just saying that he was not able to deal with the technical background so decided to take his chance and use marketing tools to trick the customers hiding his technical incompetence.

Because I can.

If we go by the food, reading the measurements is like checking if your packaged food has expired, or checking the ingredients if there are chemical preservatives inside, or making sure that there is nothing that causes allergic reactions to you (like many people have this with nuts, walnuts etc.). Measurements give you the fundemental ingredients. If a cook uses double, triple the amount of salt, or completely misses it, it will taste bad. Don't bring me the "but I don't check it every time to understand the taste", because they are not comparable. You don't buy amplifiers and headphones 3 times a day. Food production has been nearly there since emergance of civilazition. The engineering / cooking behind is much cheaper and much less complicated. And you are used to what to expect. You don't expect a horribly salty hamburger, because you do it often and you are used to what to expect. You don't make a hobby of buying a hamburger or a milk. You don't make it into a hobby. You don't get a collection of pizza boxes at home. You can even produce it at home.

If it has a peak or a dip in the measurements it will turn into bad sound, period.

You failed to make a valid point within this whole block of text...?

As someone who is indeed technical, I understand the limitations of these measurements, and that they should only be used to reinforce what our ears hear.
As an engineer, you don't design a loudspeaker or headphones based on a FR target. Sure, you have a general idea what you want, but you use the measurements to confirm what you're hearing and that something isn't broken.
Also, how do you measure things like soundstage and detail retrieval?

Can I ask a question about frequency responses? In Jude’s measurements, the HD650 seems to have a more elevated treble response than the LCD-5. Yet the HD650 is definitely not bright.

How should this be interpreted?

^^ Case in point, these curves need to be normalized in order to better compare and contrast. Otherwise it may lead to confusion such as this...

The best engineers I've discussed these topics with have always conclude that they don't design for particular specs in mind because they've heard examples of such, and they sounded like crap.

While subjectivists can be quite annoying with their "fluff", objectivists sometimes bother me more because they tend to act like they're more intelligent because they can read a graph. As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle (between subjectivity and objectivity).

 

[KMann]

Can I ask a question about frequency responses? In Jude’s measurements, the HD650 seems to have a more elevated treble response than the LCD-5. Yet the HD650 is definitely not bright.

How should this be interpreted?

As I had commented earlier, it is easy to fall into the trap of blindly following measurements, LCD-5 and HD650 have very different earpad geometry, while measurement rigs are designed to provide representative measurements on an average, beyond 3kHz, there is enough room for variation in both the ear pad geometry and how our individual ears interact with the the headphone and different seating of the headphones.

 

[Trance_Gott]

I trust FR graphs up to 3khz, beyond that, I do not unless I have a compensation curve I know works for the specific ear pad geometry and know where the subjectively flat response is (not the same as a preference curve). Also target response does not directly translate from one measurement rig to another. Trying to blindly fit frequency response to match a target response on a rig would be pleasing to the eyes for sure, but definitely not my ears.

It even looks to 3khz not good so much forwarding and little bass shy that's not Audeze how I like it.
Susvara is way better here going for a brighter signature.
I have the feeling nothing will touch Susvara the next years. I was a dreamer.

 

[sp33ls]

It even looks to 3khz not good so much forwarding that's not Audeze how I like it.
Susvara is way better here.
I have the feeling nothing will touch Susvara the next years.