[Lolito]

Well, low-fi, mid-fi and hi-fi has nothing to do with prices. Or at least it doesn't when we are talking about "fi" as fidelity. Budget vs Hi-End gear, that is another story. Like the Summit-Fi sub forum has nothing to do with Hi-Fi, that's why the term Hi-End is used. As in something "Exotic". Of course one would expect the "Hi-Fi" to come with it.

Which brings us to the LCD2C. Are these Hi-Fi? Compared to the original, not really. Are they Hi-End? They are pretty Hi-End, build is top notch, package is what it is, but they are cheaper than the original fancy, more Hi-End, rosewood classic LCD2. So, not bad, right? Wrong. This is the problem. One pays less because it was expected to be less Hi-End than the fancy rosewood, not less Hi-Fi. Why would anyone wanna save $200 in Hi-End features if that meant losing $500 in Hi-Fi features (arguably even more than that). Logic?

Exactly. LCD2C costs less money than LCDX, but it is much more expensive value wise. ALSO, it should costs 500€+VAT. Or it should include plastic fazer. Or could be an LCD X with non leather pads... In any case, the prices are way too high. certainly this is a very very niche market, that justifies the prices I guess, no one forces you to buy anything. But the quality or the technologie doesn't justify those prices. Very little value on that stuff.

 

[betula]

I remember when Tyll left InnerFidelity, he said headphones shouldn't cost more than $1000. He and you guys all have a point. Some companies do overcharge, I didn't say they don't. Some companies come out with ridiculous material and build quality on $1000+ headphones. I am not defending them.
On the other hand a lot of time and money goes into research and development; new transducer structures, new diaphragm materials and so on. Meze, Focal all did something new when it comes to drivers.

Another reviewer once said, if you buy a multi thousand dollar flagship headphone, that is like an investment in the company to support their work so they can continue research and development in the future.
Some other manufacturers carefully handcraft and hand build their headphones one by one with a lot of care. It is a complex niche hobby, we can't just say every $1000+ headphone is overpriced crap.

This hobby should be fun, and not a reason to rant on forums. Defining your own budget helps to avoid getting pissed off on high-end prices, and you might even find yourself enjoying what you have.

 

[roskodan]

No one is saying headphones shouldn't cost more than tot sum. Even Tyll had a lot of praise for the likes of Utopia, HE1000, Stax etc. It's we care about sound first, luxury is welcome, but secondary at best.

 

[gikigill]

lcd-1 is worse than old SINE. both round 400$, nothing free there.

They were offering LCD-2 not LCD-1. The LCD-1 has never been offered as a warranty replacement for either the defunct Sine or EL series.

I was personally offered LCD-2 for Sine or EL replacement.

 

[gikigill]

The thing is that a headphone can cost as much as the headphone manufacturer want, and as much as the buyers are stupid enough to pay more, and manufacturers are smart enough to rise certain prices, price will be increased. It really depends on how stupid and/or rich are audiophiles, and according to the headphone prices, there is plenty of stupidity for the show to go on. No one forcing me to buy any 1500$ headphone indeed, tht is why i didn't bought any of those, LOL. I wanted a bassy decent headphone, I was looking for one, but it has to be lcd 2F the cheapest thing, but not decent enough apparently, LCD-X at 1000€+VAT is the cheapest thing I can get, b-stock.
The other option was DT1770, 400€, but apparently DT770 80Ohm, sounds better, and costs 100€, LOL!!!

The Audeze spin off, Rossin is the nsame, at 3000€. They gave 3 of those for free to a famous audio reviewer, and to two of his musicians friends, who are so broke, that they would do WHATEVER, to get one fo those 3000€ phones for free, LOL. And they say it's a wonderful headphones....

This industry, has ZERO differences, ZERO, with any other similar industry of snob hobbies, and let me tell you something, the market works the exact same, you know why? because the people on the other side, the consumers, are as extremely stupid, dumb and bored as in any other industry.

In other industries though, you have 10 year warranties, or lifetime warranties too, for some products. Some pro cable companies also give 10 year warranties, you know why? because their product lasts, it is more expensive, but it is also better. This hifiman crap of ergonomics and industrial design, heavy audeze, overbuilt. sennheiser 800 unnecesary complexity on the structure. In engineering terms it's all quite a joke, included sonus faber and wilson speakers, joke of american bullshiting.

So when are you publishing our detailed critique of the headphone industry. I,ll buy a copy.

BTW the HD800 is complex but very novel in its design and it still holds its own in technicality and build. Rarely does an HD800 ever go bad and the parts are all replaceable and easily available.

Out of all my headphones,the HD800 is the one I expect to outlast all.

BTW Sonus, Hifiman and Sennheiser are not American.

 

[xRaptorxPunisher]

The HD800 without mods sounds awful. How anyone can listen to music with a massive hole in the upper mids and a huge 6k peak thrusting in your ears is beyond me. They have good control of the coil though and the design is well made I'll give them that. When it comes to the drivers producing low level information the ring rad drivers are pretty good, hard to argue. Germans seem to love stabbing peaks on their headphones, Beyer has them on every model ever, Ultrasone, my god who remembers those headphones, I think Ultrasone make the most horrible sounding headphones ever, metallic city and peaky probing..horrid. Germans though are tough, maybe many of us are just wimps, they take a lot of pride in their craftmanship, big fan of German culture but hate how most of their headphones sound.

 

[dsrk]

The HD800 without mods sounds awful. How anyone can listen to music with a massive hole in the upper mids and a huge 6k peak thrusting in your ears is beyond me. They have good control of the coil though and the design is well made I'll give them that. When it comes to the drivers producing low level information the ring rad drivers are pretty good, hard to argue. Germans seem to love stabbing peaks on their headphones, Beyer has them on every model ever, Ultrasone, my god who remembers those headphones, I think Ultrasone make the most horrible sounding headphones ever, metallic city and peaky probing..horrid. Germans though are tough, maybe many of us are just wimps, they take a lot of pride in their craftmanship, big fan of German culture but hate how most of their headphones sound.

I agree with Beyers and Ultrasones but apart from HD800 Sennheiser made some of the very good headphones like HD6X series and HD5X series.

 

[xRaptorxPunisher]

I agree with Beyers and Ultrasones but apart from HD800 Sennheiser made some of the very good headphones like HD6X series and HD5X series.

For sure. The HD600 and HD650 still have some of the best tonalities I've heard in a headphone. There's still a touch of 5k energy or shout but mid range, vocal timbre and treble smoothness is stella. I've always felt if they can make a HD600 or 650 tuning with the control of the HD800 driver Sennheiser would win at headphones.

 

[roskodan]

Well, ultimately one can make pro and against points about anything. Those points against HD800 stand imo, but there are pro HD800 points that for me heavily outweigh those issues. While I EQ them in the bass, and I can't recommend them without EQ (unless it's used just for some non bass dependent music), I can live with the rest of its spectrum performance. On the other hand the LCD2C really need a broader fix with EQ to be considered at all by me. The Clear, I can live with them even without EQ.

Now someone will say if pro points can be made for any headphone, why not for the LCD2C without EQ? Because they are just not competitive without EQ. The HD800 without EQ will still be a high recommendation for some. While with the LCD2C there is just no system or music that could possibly benefit from that abyss in the presence region. In case the LCD2 Fazor is more acceptable without EQ, the LCD2C is just not worth the saving.

Just keep in mind that if planing to use parametric EQ, the LCD2C EQ really well, and in that case I can recommend them. But again, may be better off just going for the LCD2 Fazor, hard to know for sure.

 

[betula]

Well, ultimately one can make pro and against points about anything. Those points against HD800 stands imo, but there are pro HD800 points that for me heavily outweigh those issues. While I EQ them in the bass, and I can't recommend them without EQ (unless it's used just for some non bass dependent music), I can live with the rest of its spectrum performance. On the other hand the LCD2C really need a broader fix with EQ to be considered at all by me. The Clear, I can live with them even without EQ.

Now someone will say if pro points can be made for any headphone, why not for the LCD2C without EQ? Because they are just not competitive without EQ. The HD800 without EQ will still be a high recommendation for some. While with the LCD2C there is just no system or music that could possibly benefit from that abyss in the presence region. In case the LCD2 Fazor is more acceptable without EQ, the LCD2C is just not worth the saving.

I know you are not alone with your opinion on the 2C, but what you are saying with this is that Audeze makes faulty headphones and every buyer who listens to them without EQ is deaf. By saying this you basically insult a large portion of Audeze buyers (not to mention the brand itself).
What if we just said people are sensitive to that upper-mid/lower treble dip to different extent?

 

[roskodan]

Well in that case they should clearly state these are medical devices for people with hypersensitivity to the 4kHz region, and are expected to help with that with a 18+dB drop in the same region. Unless you get a unicorn, I suppose.

 

[gikigill]

Well, ultimately one can make pro and against points about anything. Those points against HD800 stands imo, but there are pro HD800 points that for me heavily outweigh those issues. While I EQ them in the bass, and I can't recommend them without EQ (unless it's used just for some non bass dependent music), I can live with the rest of its spectrum performance. On the other hand the LCD2C really need a broader fix with EQ to be considered at all by me. The Clear, I can live with them even without EQ.

Now someone will say if pro points can be made for any headphone, why not for the LCD2C without EQ? Because they are just not competitive without EQ. The HD800 without EQ will still be a high recommendation for some. While with the LCD2C there is just no system or music that could possibly benefit from that abyss in the presence region. In case the LCD2 Fazor is more acceptable without EQ, the LCD2C is just not worth the saving.

Just keep in mind that if planing to use parametric EQ, the LCD2C EQ really well, and in that case I can recommend them. But again, may be better off just going for the LCD2 Fazor, hard to know for sure.

Both the Clear and the HD800 are twice the price of the LCD2C so some compromises are expected. Luckily the RME ADI-2 or Sonarworks solves all of them.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

The HD800 without mods sounds awful. How anyone can listen to music with a massive hole in the upper mids and a huge 6k peak thrusting in your ears is beyond me. They have good control of the coil though and the design is well made I'll give them that. When it comes to the drivers producing low level information the ring rad drivers are pretty good, hard to argue. Germans seem to love stabbing peaks on their headphones, Beyer has them on every model ever, Ultrasone, my god who remembers those headphones, I think Ultrasone make the most horrible sounding headphones ever, metallic city and peaky probing..horrid. Germans though are tough, maybe many of us are just wimps, they take a lot of pride in their craftmanship, big fan of German culture but hate how most of their headphones sound.

It depends what you listen to. The HD 800 is not an all around set of cans unless all you listen to all day is orchestral. If it is, I'd like to know what dynamic at any price can do what the 800 does. When I listen to big room music, I get out the 800s and run them balanced off a V280 without any EQ. Yeah baby, yeah.

For other kinds of music, sure, there are better choices. If I listen to Joni Mitchell without EQ it makes fingernails on blackboards sound like cool jazz. But to say it sounds awful without mods is taking it too far.

Beyer DT1770 doesn't have any stabbing peaks. I don't know about their other cans.

The HD 600 is the all around king of cans. I think the LCD-2C is a great compliment to it. I love them both.

 

[roskodan]

Both the Clear and the HD800 are twice the price of the LCD2C so some compromises are expected. Luckily the RME ADI-2 or Sonarworks solves all of them.

Maybe I should RME my LCD2C.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Maybe I should RME my LCD2C.

Definitely a killer combo. For a bonus, run some TH900mkii off an RME. Just WOW...