[Traveller]

...when I hear about soundstage associated with dac/amps over and over and over again, I go nuts! We know every parameter of electronics, we can measure them precisely. If you are plugging your headphone to two different devices that measure the same within 0.001% precision and you hear a difference...

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your argumentation. If there is a thread in "Sound Science" that would support your argument please share it with us.
 
I have several DACs and the sonic signature does vary between them. The AQ Dragonfly Red is very mid-forward sounding while with the Chord Mojo, vocals are more laid back. Thus the location of the vocalist appears different based on which DAC I'm using. Heck, I am dying to get my hands on a Chord Hugo 2 if nothing else for the filtering and cross-feed options it provides.
 
Having said that I am more than happy to suggest that the transducer represents 70% or more of the difference in quality of a "system" and as you noted, given half-decent DAC/Amp stages, the soundstage (or any other sonic attribute for that matter) should not dramatically change.
 

 

[gr8soundz]

  Look, I agree this thread is about XB10. But when I hear about soundstage associated with dac/amps over and over and over again, I go nuts! We know every parameter of electronics, we can measure them precisely. If you are plugging your headphone to two different devices that measure the same within 0.001% precision and you hear a difference, that is between your headphone and your ear, do not blame the electronic device or try to make up esoteric terms only discernible to audiophiles with  hyper-sensitive ears.
If you say the earth is flat because my hawk-eyes can say so, there's no point arguing.  

 
Have you actually done any volume matched, A/B comparisons between sources or amps using the same headphone?
 
And why is 0.001 the cutoff? That's like saying two racing drivers and their cars are no different after crossing the line 0.001 seconds apart despite one being faster in certain sections of the track. No human can accurately clock either to 0.001 and making assumptions based solely a measurement ignores so much more.
 
Some devices measure at less than 0.00001 which is why equipment like Audio Precision's 555 are now needed. But that doesn't automatically mean they sound great. Better (or same for that matter) is a subjective term. Some ears are certainly more sensitive and I don't understand why anyone would suggest otherwise.
 
I applaud anyone trying to better quantify (or standardize) audio measurements. Those who've tried have thus far been praised and/or vilified for many of the reasons we're debating. There are far too many variables involved. For instance, silver has measurably less resistance than copper so everything should sound better with it but I know first-hand that isn't always true.
 
The fact is, no spec sheet will ever be long enough to confirm what sounds better to me without actually hearing it. Among the dacs and amps I've tried there were countless audible differences (no matter how small, including soundstage) when using my same headphones.

 

[The Walrus]

   
Have you actually done any volume matched, A/B comparisons between sources or amps using the same headphone?
 
And why is 0.001 the cutoff? That's like saying two racing drivers and their cars are no different after crossing the line 0.001 seconds apart despite one being faster in certain sections of the track. No human can accurately clock either to 0.001 and making assumptions based solely a measurement ignores so much more.
 
Some devices measure at less than 0.00001 which is why equipment like Audio Precision's 555 are now needed. But that doesn't automatically mean they sound great. Better (or same for that matter) is a subjective term. Some ears are certainly more sensitive and I don't understand why anyone would suggest otherwise.
 
I applaud anyone trying to better quantify (or standardize) audio measurements. Those who've tried have thus far been praised and/or vilified for many of the reasons we're debating. There are far too many variables involved. For instance, silver has measurably less resistance than copper so everything should sound better with it but I know first-hand that isn't always true.
 
The fact is, no spec sheet will ever be long enough to confirm what sounds better to me without actually hearing it. Among the dacs and amps I've tried there were countless audible differences (no matter how small, including soundstage) when using my same headphones.

So yeah, in short your argument is that your ears are more sensitive than any measuring equipment we have, and science hasn't caught up with your ears' capabilities yet!  Kudos. Lesser humans like me will rely on what audio engineers say.

 

[k4syx]

So yeah, in short your argument is that your ears are more sensitive than any measuring equipment we have, and science hasn't caught up with your ears' capabilities yet!  Kudos. Lesser humans like me will rely on what audio engineers say.

Well it started with me so here are my two cents:

Human ears perceive sound differently. That's a known fact. Moreover, imperfections in audio lane (like thd, crossover etc.) do affect what we perceive as sound. And yes, any two mathematically perfect amps (scaling the sound without any distortion) will sound perfectly the same. But they do not exist (yet?).
Anyway, some or most audio equipment manufacturers introduce some imperfections on purpose because human ears and brains are not perfect devices either and this slight imperfections affect what we describe as warm sounding, fast or slow, musical or soundstage.
Thus I'll say it again: AT sounds (to my ears) wider, with a tad bit better separation than XB10. This may come from lower crossover, why not. The thing is that I do not have manufacturers info on crossover for these devices, not I have the equipment to measure it myself.
The only thing I can say for sure is that with the same source, same song, same volume level, same headphones AT sounds 'wider'.

I'm engineer and I know what I'm talking about here. It's been more than 20 years since I've been taught how to construct amplifier (and believe me, in precise electronic world any super hi fi amp is considered trash because of high distortion and narrow band) and how to build a DAC, starting with simple resistor only devices.

So my point is that as long as you are right in theory, in real life, real devices are build flawed on purpose because that's what defines them and our human hearing.

Howgh.

 

[gavinfabl]

It's been over a month now since I wrote my review of the XB10 and my opinion on the device has not changed much. I've been using it predominantly with my iPhone 7 Plus and with a selection of headphones.

I will receive my LG G6 soon and so will test the APT-X HD with it as well.

On the debate of using the AAC codec, I've been streaming classical from Apple Music to the XB10 with my Sennheiser HD598 connected to it. The result is fantastic. The XB10 is able to scale well too.

For what it costs versus what it does, it great IMO.

 

[MonsterHouse]

Other then this product and Chords Mojo/Poly are there any other options out there for a portable Bluetooth DAC/AMP. DAC being the most important part of the two. Been researching and can't find anything similar to this to compare too. You have this and then the $1000 Chord option thats not even out yet. 
 
I'll be using iPhone to Campfire Vega's. Love any advice people may have. 
 
Thanks
 

 

[james444]

  Other then this product and Chords Mojo/Poly are there any other options out there for a portable Bluetooth DAC/AMP. DAC being the most important part of the two. Been researching and can't find anything similar to this to compare too. You have this and then the $1000 Chord option thats not even out yet. 
 
I'll be using iPhone to Campfire Vega's. Love any advice people may have. 
 
Thanks
 

 
Another option would be the Shanling H3A.
 
Subjective experience, while it may sound a tad better, it gets quite hot during use and has less stable BT reception than the XB10. Nine times out of ten, I end up using the XB10.

 

[Audiowood]

 
Another option would be the Shanling H3A.
 
Subjective experience, while it may sound a tad better, it gets quite hot during use and has less stable BT reception than the XB10. Nine times out of ten, I end up using the XB10.

 


What is your take on the balance output of XB10.

I have used an adaptor from 2.5mm to 3.5mm and notice that the stereo imaging becomes very narrow. The unbalance seems to have a wider soundstage while balance is very narrow. Did you get a chance to hear the balance output? It seems to have tigher bass, louder but the soundstage is like collapse totally..

Do you think the problem lies with my adaptor or XB10 balance ?

I got the adaptor here

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M9HK243/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[cj3209]

What is your take on the balance output of XB10.

I have used an adaptor from 2.5mm to 3.5mm and notice that the stereo imaging becomes very narrow. The unbalance seems to have a wider soundstage while balance is very narrow. Did you get a chance to hear the balance output? It seems to have tigher bass, louder but the soundstage is like collapse totally..

Do you think the problem lies with my adaptor or XB10 balance ?

I got the adaptor here

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M9HK243/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 
Not sure I understand why you would want to go from balanced to stereo unless you were testing balanced vs. stereo.  

 

[Audiowood]

   
Not sure I understand why you would want to go from balanced to stereo unless you were testing balanced vs. stereo.  

 
Sorry I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say? I am asking if anyone finds the balance output to have a small soundstage.

 

[james444]

Did you get a chance to hear the balance output? It seems to have tigher bass, louder but the soundstage is like collapse totally..

 
I'm afraid, I just use the single ended 3.5mm output. Bass seems fine to my ears, actually.

 

[Audiowood]

   
I'm afraid, I just use the single ended 3.5mm output. Bass seems fine to my ears, actually.

​Ok thanks buddy

 

[Gu1b0]

Bought today in Shibuya.

Impressed.

(edit)
AK70+WE40... uhm, i think AK70 has bad bluetooth... it keeps losing the signal

 

[stemplar]

Question. Can low / High / aux be exalted? Or does this automatically detect the resistance?
As it worked for the Lg V10 / 20. ..
The link shows the difference between the balanced and au unbalanced output volume ..

 

[Csokis]

Inside.

Cirrus Logic CS4350 DAC + CSR8675 BT chip

Source!