Astell&Kern AK380

[Duncan]

Which proves that my analogy was poor. I'm not talking about refinement. I'm talking about performance. Refinement is 100% subjective. Some people may call the AK380 more refined, others the Jr more refined. In audio, non-performance metrics are completely personal preference. And I've heard some people call the AK380 harsh. I've heard others call it refined. 


 

We are crossing purposes, I was replying to what power is (compared to volume) and was trying to explain that more power (on tap) at a set volume is generally better than lesser power at the same volume...

 

[shigzeo]

We are crossing purposes, I was replying to what power is (compared to volume) and was trying to explain that more power (on tap) at a set volume is generally better than lesser power at the same volume...

But how can you have 'lesser power' at the same volume? Volume is a direct result of voltage. The same volume (decibel level) requires the same voltage. So more power isn't more refined, it's just louder. 

 

[Duncan]

Isn't that then the same truth about combustion engines, which was where my point was coming from, and there should only be one engine size, and it's torque point will always be the same...

 

[shigzeo]

The analogy breaks down in too many areas to be useful except as I originally worded it: at a certain, limited speed, no car is faster, or slower than another. They all travel 100kp/h at the same speed. That can't change. Torque, etc., have no bearing on that absolute. 

We are not currently talking bout how much current is supplied at a certain voltage level, or where that current drops as a result of load, we are talking about absolute volume level. 
 
If we were to talk about refinement, that all comes down to how you define refinement. Again, some people like, and consider warmth, more refined. Others consider details more refined. Unless something is really wrong in the power supply, and assuming the output device (headphones) are the same, and present no overt load on player A and B, 'refinement' is completely subjective to the listener. 
 
To bring that back to cars: you could have a person that prefers the grandfather feel of a large Benz at 100kp/h to a sport-tuned Ferrari. Another could consider a Volvo lory to be more refined. That is personal preference. 
 
Calling player A or B more refined is fine. But it isn't standard from person to person, no matter what you, or I think. 
 
As to what I think, I really like the sound of the AK380, but my personal preferences lie a bit warmer. But that shouldn't influence what I say about the AK380's performance in a given, standard metric. 

 

[bflat]

ok, my turn with the analogy:
 
If you are cruising down the highway at 50 mph, then yes, who cares how big or small your engine is. This analogy is for a test tone at a specific frequency.
 
If you are an F1 driver that is negotiating twisting turns, accelerating/decelerating like 100 mph in 2 sec, then you need all of the 1500 hp engines these things have. This analogy is for dynamic music tracks.
 
Regardless of volume (velocity), a strong power supply/circuit gives the best performance (acceleration).
 
Heck, my Toyota Prius can get up to 100 mph, as long as you have about 3 minutes to spare.

 

[shigzeo]

So tell me what parts of the circuit make handling dynamic music passages better? And, how can you/do you measure that those passages are more stable? We are getting lost in subjective talk that leads us in to saying that Player A 'sounds' better according to subjective criteria than Player B. I will be happy to discuss these things, but we when measuring how a car corners, there are measurable criteria to which the car must perform. You mentioned 'accelerating/decelerating like 100 mph in 2 sec' (both of which are unreasonable with today's tech, but at least they are measures). We can directly link what part of the powertrain and chassis help cornering, acceleration, etc. And we can measure how they perform in any test. 
 
But when it comes to comparing player A or B, we do not talk about them. We go on and on about things for which we have no proof, nor even to which we can pinpoint with any accuracy between songs, but we do it with big words and in authoritiative tones. 
 
Which is why I suggested that the car analogy breaks down 100% unless the only thing referenced is an absolute speed such as 100kp/h. No car travelling 100kp/h is faster than another travelling at 100kp/h. It is a constant, invariable metric. Introduce cornering or braking to the analogy (which in the car analogy can and are be measured) and you have to follow up with similarly measurable/reproduceable data and methods of measuring for the audio gear. If none exists, again: we are talking about 100% speculative or subjective opinion. Which is fine, but let's call it what it is.

 

[bflat]

So tell me what parts of the circuit make handling dynamic music passages better? And, how can you/do you measure that those passages are more stable? We are getting lost in subjective talk that leads us in to saying that Player A 'sounds' better according to subjective criteria than Player B. I will be happy to discuss these things, but we when measuring how a car corners, there are measurable criteria to which the car must perform. You mentioned 'accelerating/decelerating like 100 mph in 2 sec' (both of which are unreasonable with today's tech, but at least they are measures). We can directly link what part of the powertrain and chassis help cornering, acceleration, etc. And we can measure how they perform in any test. 

But when it comes to comparing player A or B, we do not talk about them. We go on and on about things for which we have no proof, nor even to which we can pinpoint with any accuracy between songs, but we do it with big words and in authoritiative tones. 

Which is why I suggested that the car analogy breaks down 100% unless the only thing referenced is an absolute speed such as 100kp/h. No car travelling 100kp/h is faster than another travelling at 100kp/h. It is a constant, invariable metric. Introduce cornering or braking to the analogy (which in the car analogy can and are be measured) and you have to follow up with similarly measurable/reproduceable data and methods of measuring for the audio gear. If none exists, again: we are talking about 100% speculative or subjective opinion. Which is fine, but let's call it what it is.

Quick correction 100 Kp/H in 2 sec

If I read this right going back to AK380 and CIEM (assume BA type) - you are saying that at a set volume and voltage, the current draw from the amp does not change during a playback of a music track?

If you say "yes" than I misunderstood what type of amp the AK380 has and also misunderstood that BA IEMS' input impedance fluctuate to diifferent frequencies.

If you say " no" current draw does fluctuate, then that is what I believe is correct and I am just talking about an amp's ability to provide enough current and fast enough response as to not distort the sound. That is where I say that a more powerful amp is better than a weaker one even at the same volume. This was strictly in response to you stating IMD issues with low impedance IEMS. I speculate that the AK380 amp does not have enough power even a low volumes for low impedance IEMs. Again just talking distortion and not "refinement". I also use "dynamic" in the context of high dynamic range which would require high amounts of instantaneous current to accurately amplify.

 

[lextheimpaler]

Wow just wow..so I've used my new AK380 together with my new Hugo and in my short listening time using my just broken in Layla's, that the AK380 SQ is excellent (with and without the Hugo), on par if not better than Hugo/iPhone combo. Listening to James Bay's, Let it Go, the AK380 gives a 3D sound and instrument separation that I get lost in. The Hugo is also superb but the 380 just gives a special wow factor. At 1m30 you can distinctly hear the cymbals where as in the Sony ZX2, it becomes muddy. The electric guitar at 2.50 gives goosebumps. The singer's voice is also my upfront vs the Hugo. Its early days but the AK380 is when paired with the Laylas is worth every penny.

 

[Ike1985]

Fascinating discussion guys.

 

[sutjahjo]

I was once told (true) :

- 120bhp engine is all you need in city driving, any additional power will be a waste.

-5 MP sensor is all you need for Web posting, any additional resolution cannot be seen by naked eyes.

-65" UHD TV is meaningless as no naked eyes can differentiate the additional resolution over FHD TV.

For my personal experiences, all these seemingly rational advices are untrue.

 

[shigzeo]

I was once told (true) :

- 120bhp engine is all you need in city driving, any additional power will be a waste.

-5 MP sensor is all you need for Web posting, any additional resolution cannot be seen by naked eyes.

-65" UHD TV is meaningless as no naked eyes can differentiate the additional resolution over FHD TV.

For my personal experiences, all these seemingly rational advices are untrue.

Naturally. 
 
But the talk was about performance at a specific measure. And 16-bit can't reveal any SNR or dynamic range beyond 96dB. 24-bit goes much higher than that, but at typical listening volumes, it essentially gives up no appreciable dynamic range VS 16-bit, nor does it give appreciably (or noticeably) SNR than 16-bit. If you want to appreciate 24-bit you have to be listening to music first recorded to deliver 24-bit spec (most isn't close), then you have to listen to it at pre-amped volume levels that succeed 16-bit, or past 96dB. But by then, the signal is too loud for your ears, and you are still limited to how/when/who recorded the album. Lastly, the performance of the DAP/DAC/Amp. In the AK380's case, it is good to excellent, but it depends on the load it drives. Earphones cause it to trip distortion way up, but that is true almost across the board.
 
By the time you factor in everything, including listening volume and output earphone/headphone, 24-bit has next to no edge. But it is a cool option to have. I'm not saying 16-bit is better. 24-bit is clearly, measurably better. But for almost all human uses, it is academic at best.

 

[FidelityCastro]

Wow just wow..so I've used my new AK380 together with my new Hugo and in my short listening time using my just broken in Layla's, that the AK380 SQ is excellent (with and without the Hugo), on par if not better than Hugo/iPhone combo. Listening to James Bay's, Let it Go, the AK380 gives a 3D sound and instrument separation that I get lost in. The Hugo is also superb but the 380 just gives a special wow factor. At 1m30 you can distinctly hear the cymbals where as in the Sony ZX2, it becomes muddy. The electric guitar at 2.50 gives goosebumps. The singer's voice is also my upfront vs the Hugo. Its early days but the AK380 is when paired with the Laylas is worth every penny.

Lex that's a really great mini-review. You've managed to cover a lot in a short post: I was thinking about Sony ZX2 just because I'm a Tidal fanatic (hence the iP6 with Hugo). I won't get a 380 for that reason. If they produce one that hosts Tidal, then I'm all over it.

One thing that struck me is that you said "AK380 SQ is excellent (with and without the Hugo), on par if not better than Hugo/iPhone combo". Does this not put to bed the long-running debate about high quality DAPs vs smartphones into the Hugo? If very, very expensive A&K DAP is only "on par if not better" than Hugo + iP6, then perhaps we should only be considering the 380 if we want a standalone, very portable TOTL DAP that is a match (or just a bit better) than Hugo + iP6?

 

[lextheimpaler]

Lex that's a really great mini-review. You've managed to cover a lot in a short post: I was thinking about Sony ZX2 just because I'm a Tidal fanatic (hence the iP6 with Hugo). I won't get a 380 for that reason. If they produce one that hosts Tidal, then I'm all over it.

One thing that struck me is that you said "AK380 SQ is excellent (with and without the Hugo), on par if not better than Hugo/iPhone combo". Does this not put to bed the long-running debate about high quality DAPs vs smartphones into the Hugo? If very, very expensive A&K DAP is only "on par if not better" than Hugo + iP6, then perhaps we should only be considering the 380 if we want a standalone, very poryable TOTL DAP that is a match (or just a bit better) than Hugo + iP6?

Thanks. I'm not saying the Hugo/Iphone combo is bad in anyway. In fact its also superb and depending on what kind of music you listening to it, it maybe better than the AK380. Personally though for that James Bay track which I listened to at least many times over, Hugo/iPhone combo vs standalone AK380 vs Sony ZX2, then AK380/Hugo Combo (which I could tell the difference between and the Hugo/iphone combo), I preferred the standalone AK380 with the Layla's. Whether the 380 is deserving of the price, that's another debate. 
For me, I listen most of music on the road, and I would like to travel with the least amount of equipment as possible the AK380 is great choice. I originally thought the ZX2 would do and I have already had 100 hours on it but it's quite obvious it falls behind the AK380, not surprisingly. Again pricing is for another debate. 
I just wish the AK380 has support for Tidal/Qobuz or could utilize an Android interface like the ZX2. I have used the Sennheisers IE800 and the K10's with the AK380 and both sound superb, however with combined with the Laylas (not balanced) is on another level.
 
If you have the coin and want a minimum portable solution and don't mind to your existing music collection then the Laylas/AK 380 is unbeatable.

 

[cheznous]

  Thanks. I'm not saying the Hugo/Iphone combo is bad in anyway. In fact its also superb and depending on what kind of music you listening to it, it maybe better than the AK380. Personally though for that James Bay track which I listened to at least many times over, Hugo/iPhone combo vs standalone AK380 vs Sony ZX2, then AK380/Hugo Combo (which I could tell the difference between and the Hugo/iphone combo), I preferred the standalone AK380 with the Layla's. Whether the 380 is deserving of the price, that's another debate. 
For me, I listen most of music on the road, and I would like to travel with the least amount of equipment as possible the AK380 is great choice. I originally thought the ZX2 would do and I have already had 100 hours on it but it's quite obvious it falls behind the AK380, not surprisingly. Again pricing is for another debate. 
I just wish the AK380 has support for Tidal/Qobuz or could utilize an Android interface like the ZX2. I have used the Sennheisers IE800 and the K10's with the AK380 and both sound superb, however with combined with the Laylas (not balanced) is on another level.
 
If you have the coin and want a minimum portable solution and don't mind to your existing music collection then the Laylas/AK 380 is unbeatable.

We are so different how we hear things which I guess is why comparisons are odious as the old saying goes.
I found the ZX2 with Laylas preferable to the AK380 so much so I returned the AK380.
I think I was expecting too much from the AK380 and that made me dislike it in the end.

 

[lextheimpaler]

 
We are so different how we hear things which I guess is why comparisons are odious as the old saying goes.
I found the ZX2 with Laylas preferable to the AK380 so much so I returned the AK380.
I think I was expecting too much from the AK380 and that made me dislike it in the end.

Yes for $3,500, one would expect something out of this world. $3,500 is an obscene amount of money for DAP. I think this skews most people's initial impressions. I really like the ZX2 as well and if I was paying for it I would choose the ZX2 for the best bang for the buck. The Hugo/iphone combo is great but you simply can't carrying this around with you. I found the iPhone 6 with my IE800's or even the Layla's (they nowhere near to broken in) with Tidal a decent compromise for on the go. I just listened to Diana Krall's Love Scenes (SACD) and the AK380+Hugo bests the AK380 standalone. Its like she's singing in front of you!