[kool bubba ice]

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Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let's get real here, chances are if any of the onlookers did anything they would end up dead or in a wheelchair for life. It's easy to act tough on the internet, but try doing something like this in real life, especially when you're not big, popular, have lots of friends, and in general can expect some help when a gang of pissed-off neanderthals comes for you with hurt on their minds. Not helping someone when you have the power to is detestable. But you can't expect someone that doesn't have the power to do anything to try and stick their neck out. Have you ever been jumped? Have you ever had a gang beat the daylights out of you just for fun? Ever lived in an area where gang warfare is the norm and living to be 25 was an accomplishment? Have you ever been laid up in a hospital for months with no apparent chance of recovery just because some idiot and his friends decided to powertrip by beating the life out of you? Ever had guns pointed at you with obvious intent to blow your head off? Growing up is no picnic for a lot of people. Now, I'm not saying "let's all cower in fear," but let's not get out the pitchforks just yet. Sure, you could say that not doing anything is cowardly, and on paper, you'd be right. But you don't know the circumstances, and you don't know how you would act in a situation like this without having really been in one.

So, the other option is do nothing, & let a 15 yr old get gang raped & beat senseless.. Screw the I net, I would have done something.. I was 250 as a senior, with a awful temper, benching over 400, & strong as hell.. With my adrenaline on tilt.. All 4 or 7 would have got whupped or ran out of there like cowards they are.. I don't think about what if.. I think in the now.. a 15 yr old is getting pummeled & gang rapped. You do something.. If those 10 who watched had balls they all would have jumped in.. & the cowards would have ran. Again, imagine if that was your friend, sister, or daughter..

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by marvin /img/forum/go_quote.gif If America had England's demographics, we wouldn't have such an issue with low SES schools either.

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Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You cannot compare England to the U.S. Like Marvin said, England is about as homogeneous as it gets. The U.S. educational system used to be very strict, but every power has been stripped from us in legal battles and cultural/social differences and changes.

I don't see what you're saying regarding England's demographics and homogeneous nature or how that would affect the schools policy on education. Not to dive in too deeply with demographics but there is now a huge Muslim population in England.. when I started school in the late 80s there were perhaps 1 or 2 in the entire school, by the time I graduated in the mid 90s the schools were 1/3rd Muslim. In 2004 there were 500,000 Muslims in the UK, in 2008 2.8 Million and growing rapidly, 10x more growth than any other race/religion. Despite this incredible rise in the Muslim population they are by order of the queen required to live like a Britain and speak English. How different races should affect the way the schools teach is beyond me.

Why can't schools in America be strict?
Why can't schools have a strict uniform policy?
Why is it okay to talk/sleep in class, are American schools not allowed to punish in the form of hour long detentions and expel repeat offenders?

Perhaps if said offenders were punished for smaller crimes they wouldn't be allowed to attend the dance in the first place and the rape would of never happened.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't see what you're saying regarding England's demographics and homogeneous nature or how that would affect the schools policy on education. Not to dive in too deeply with demographics but there is now a huge Muslim population in England.. when I started school in the late 80s there were perhaps 1 or 2 in the entire school, by the time I graduated in the mid 90s the schools were 1/3rd Muslim. In 2004 there were 500,000 Muslims in the UK, in 2008 2.8 Million and growing rapidly, 10x more growth than any other race/religion. Despite this incredible rise in the Muslim population they are by order of the queen required to live like a Britain and speak English. How different races should affect the way the schools teach is beyond me.

Alright, so you have one other major ethnic group that immigrates to England based on your statement. This cannot possibly be compared to the U.S. where there are many different ethnic groups (all with varying educational backgrounds and language abilities) immigrating. Without delving into politics and more "edgy" topics, let's just say that things are not exactly comparable between England and the U.S.

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why can't schools in America be strict? Why can't schools have a strict uniform policy? Why is it okay to talk/sleep in class, are American schools not allowed to punish in the form of hour long detentions and expel repeat offenders?

Again, our culture demands freedom of expression, believes in legal rights at all costs, and shifts parental responsibility to the TV and teachers. We are a society that lets our children run amok, but all hell will break loose if someone else disciplines them.

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perhaps if said offenders were punished for smaller crimes they wouldn't be allowed to attend the dance in the first place and the rape would of never happened.

Though I agree with you, we already have one of the highest inmate to free citizen ratio in the world. A pound of preventative parenting is better than a pounding in jail

 

[Sherwood]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why can't schools in America be strict? Why can't schools have a strict uniform policy? Why is it okay to talk/sleep in class, are American schools not allowed to punish in the form of hour long detentions and expel repeat offenders?

1) Unlike in the UK, education in the US is not Federal. It is devolved to states, then devolved further to districts. Odds are good that there are schools somewhere that mirror what you are looking for, but it is not all of them. It is this way because we want it this way, because we are a laboratory of democracy.

2) It is generally up to the individual school to impose uniforms or otherwise. Some schools do. The one I attended did not, the one I taught at did. I'm not certain they made as significant a difference as you are prescribing, but there's evidence that they do.

3) Again, this is up to the individual teachers. they are subject to school boards and superintendents, but not a larger ministry. It is the opinion of many Americans that these devolutions of power allow for more region-specific education. That point is debatable, but there's your reason. It is not a failing, necessarily, it is a conscious decision.

 

[marvin]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif How different races should affect the way the schools teach is beyond me.

As of 2007, 88% of the British were white. Practically speaking, whites outnumber minorities by so much in Britain that it's impossible for minorities to gain control of a significant percentage of local institutions and change them. This is radically different from the situation in the United States, especially when you consider what white flight does to local demographics.

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, our culture demands freedom of expression, believes in legal rights at all costs, and shifts parental responsibility to the TV and teachers. We are a society that lets our children run amok, but all hell will break loose if someone else disciplines them.

Are you sure that's why? ~ I mean theres a time and a place for everything, why do children have freedom of expression at school but adults have to follow uniform polices in the work place? Surely if this was a case of legal rights it wouldn't be isolated to the school ground. Heck the work place can even tell you how to wear your hair, not to paint your nails, wear earrings, everything down to the color of your shoes. I'm not saying a uniform will solve all problems but it's up there... in the UK they have started to put GPS devices in the school emblem on the blazer, this way the school knows where the students are while on the premises.

Why can't the schools adopt the same polices the rest of the country shares with it's laws; if you don't like it, leave attitude.

In a nutshell are you saying if Joe spits at Jane and you put Joe on detention you will face legal charges over the discipline?

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Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Though I agree with you, we already have one of the highest inmate to free citizen ratio in the world. A pound of preventative parenting is better than a pounding in jail

Well that is because of the drug laws more-so than rapists/murderers which is another problem altogether. I wasn't talking about jailing the students for repeatably not handing in homework but to expel them from the school with repeat offenders going to a school for bad kids... whatever there called?

 

[Sherwood]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif In 2004 there were 500,000 Muslims in the UK, in 2008 2.8 Million and growing rapidly, 10x more growth than any other race/religion. Despite this incredible rise in the Muslim population they are by order of the queen required to live like a Britain and speak English. How different races should affect the way the schools teach is beyond me.

These numbers don't line up with I've read. Pew puts the UK Muslim this month at 1.7 million in the UK, or about 2.7% of the population.

As to how various demographics affect school policy, that answer is awfully complicated. I don't pretend to understand it, but it's very contentious.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you sure that's why? ~ I mean theres a time and a place for everything, why do children have freedom of expression at school but adults have to follow uniform polices in the work place? Surely if this was a case of legal rights it wouldn't be isolated to the school ground. Heck the work place can even tell you how to wear your hair, not to paint your nails, wear earrings, everything down to the color of your shoes.

You are confusing a public institution with a private company. A private company has a lot more say in topics like this. They are bound by anti-discrimination laws, but that is still a lot more freedom of dictating rules than a system like the educational system that takes its cues by trial verdicts and loud, demanding parents.


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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not saying a uniform will solve all problems but it's up there... in the UK they have started to put GPS devices in the school emblem on the blazer, this way the school knows where the students are while on the premises.

I like that idea, but the ACLU will be setting themselves on fire in protest.

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why can't the schools adopt the same polices the rest of the country shares with it's laws; if you don't like it, leave attitude.

Haha, I think you need to spend more time here. That is not the case at all, trust me. Laws are run and changed by demographics. I will leave it at that so as to not get the thread closed.


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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif In a nutshell are you saying if Joe spits at Jane and you put Joe on detention you will face legal charges over the discipline?

No, but you would be surprised at how much the school districts are scared of lawsuits by parents and their all too willing lawyers.


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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well that is because of the drug laws more-so than rapists/murderers which is another problem altogether. I wasn't talking about jailing the students for repeatably not handing in homework but to expel them from the school with repeat offenders going to a school for bad kids... whatever there called?

Continuation schools is the word you are looking for. We have them, but they are full

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1) Unlike in the UK, education in the US is not Federal.

Thats the problem. If anything should be federal education certainly should be. If school is mandatory for a child then education should be identical no matter where in the states you live. Otherwise what you will see is parents migrating to states where the school system is better, and lower income families having no option but to send there children to a poor school where in turn they will be beaten and raped. That is a problem brought on by the state, one which can be avoided.

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Originally Posted by marvin /img/forum/go_quote.gif As of 2007, 88% of the British were white. Practically speaking, whites outnumber minorities by so much in Britain that it's impossible for minorities to gain control of a significant percentage of local institutions and change them. This is radically different from the situation in the United States, especially when you consider what white flight does to local demographics.

It's not so different... you have to understand certain races populate particular areas of the UK, so while London and the surrounding rich areas have little difference in ethnicity poorer cities up north could outnumber the whites. 88% of Britain no doubt includes Scotland and Wales, look up the demographics for northern cities like Bradford and Manchester.

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Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif These numbers don't line up with I've read. Pew puts the UK Muslim this month at 1.7 million in the UK, or about 2.7% of the population.

Maybe you didn't hear about the recent protests in Manchester but it's a growing problem, I wish I was making this stuff up. Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are confusing a public institution with a private company. A private company has a lot more say in topics like this. They are bound by anti-discrimination laws, but that is still a lot more freedom of dictating rules than a system like the educational system that takes its cues by trial verdicts and loud, demanding parents. ...

Well to sum up what you're saying is schools can't do anything in fear of lawsuits; clearly if they were federal in the first place that wouldn't be an issue. Obviously I don't know a lot about the education system in the states I can only say it like I see it... school in England was hard, we call graduation parole. There is really no nice way of saying this but I haven't met an American in my 6 years of living here that can do math in there heads, when I say didn't you learn it in school the reply is always; that's what calculators are for.

School in the UK is to get your basics before you are let loose on the rest of the world, we graduate at 16 and by then you are expected to know what you want to do. Honestly I think if the Government wanted to fix schools like everything else they would just do it.

A teacher should be paid the same as a doctor, in the UK, Australia and other controlled nations teachers are respected more and paid what they deserve. I watched a documentary a couple years back showing a doctor in the states getting paid $500,000 while the same guy doing the same job in the UK got paid £50,000 yet he lived comfortably, had kids, wife could stay at home to look after them, drove a nice car despite everything in the UK costing more... I guess what I'm trying to say is the problem isn't with the kids or the parents but with the system put in place by the government. After all despite race or religion we are all animals, we are all the same and we can all learn; given the opportunity.

 

[marvin]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Honestly I think if the Government wanted to fix schools like everything else they would just do it.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, the political will isn't there and there are a lot of entrenched forces against it.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Honestly I think if the Government wanted to fix schools like everything else they would just do it.

That was what NCLB was all about. Clearly, that did not work out. I am not putting much stock into the government fixing anything.

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess what I'm trying to say is the problem isn't with the kids or the parents but with the system put in place by the government. After all despite race or religion we are all animals, we are all the same and we can all learn; given the opportunity.

I disagree adamantly. All mainstream students have the chance to learn. Obviously there are schools that are worse than others, but it is a result of the population feeding into them for the most part. I really feel badly for those students at those schools who try to do the right thing and are scared to go to school because of the other scumbags that go there. In that respect, something needs to change in that area post haste.

Respect and desire to learn has nothing to do with SES. It has everything to do with values and priorities. Some people have them, and some do not.

 

[Sherwood]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif it's a growing problem, I wish I was making this stuff up. Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

Oh, I get that it's a problem. I was bombed on the tube. Nonetheless, 2.7% does not a powerful minority make.

 

[wonderwall]

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Originally Posted by Mystere9 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Was the one raped a female? If so my righteous indignation of righteousness will crush them all! In other news, small children continue to be sold as wives in developing nations.

.....because it wouldn't be so bad if it was a guy being raped. What for real.

As much as I don't like people in general, I have to believe that most of the bystanders did not realize it was rape. The things drunk chicks will do, yes even at 15, is rather disgusting. I'm sure the guys who did this were most likely banking on that.

Feel awful for the girl but seriously: this is why no one should drink alcohol unless they are able to be responsible for themselves or have someone they trust greatly there for them. I've just seen way too many cases like this, hell, even known people who almost got taken advantage of because they were so wasted they couldn't stand. And while the last thing I want to do is vilify the victim... well, that is kind of like cutting your hand and jumping in a shark tank. :x

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh, I get that it's a problem. I was bombed on the tube. Nonetheless, 2.7% does not a powerful minority make.

2.7% of 64 million is 1.7 million, now divide these between a few cities and towns in northern England and you start to see the magnitude of this growing culture. Sorry to hear you got bombed on the tube but don't blame it on the Muslims, they're just a scapegoat.