[bcasey25raptor]

my shure headphones sound better then my 100$ logitech speakers but is it a general rule that speakers are cheaper or more expensive.
 
whats the better value for the money.

 

[Ishcabible]

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my shure headphones sound better then my 100$ logitech speakers but is it a general rule that speakers are cheaper or more expensive.
 
whats the better value for the money.

 
Generally, people say that headphones are better for the bang/buck factor, but there are discrepancies. It depends on how lucky you are. It's easy to get a set of planars or great vintage speakers for the price of mid-fi headphones, if you're willing to wait. People tend to overlook the older/diy stuff in place of the new, shiny, expensive stuff when comparing the two.
 
Strike me down if I ever find a pair of headphones that completely slaughter a pair of vintage AMT speakers, Maggies, or if you're especially lucky, Carver ribbons for the same price ($300-400ish) they tend to go for locally. But I'd never be able to listen to them at night when people are sleeping.

 

[Shike]

 
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my shure headphones sound better then my 100$ logitech speakers but is it a general rule that speakers are cheaper or more expensive.
 
whats the better value for the money.

It depends on how lucky you are. It's easy to get a set of planars or great vintage speakers for the price of mid-fi headphones, if you're willing to wait. People tend to overlook the older/diy stuff in place of the new, shiny, expensive stuff. Strike me down if I ever find a pair of headphones that beat a pair of vintage AMT speakers, Maggies, or if you're especially lucky, Carver ribbons for the same price ($300-400ish) they tend to go for locally.

If it's quasi-ribbon speakers you're looking to compare to, even lower cost headphones tend to have substantially lower distortion which is worth noting.  Generally to get speakers with similar performance of headphones technically you're looking at something like a used pair of Martin Logans (stats, not ribbon or primarily cone based).  Not sure how true ribbons compare though, so maybe true ribbon Maggies could also be considered.  Either way if I'm not mistaken you're still looking at around ~1K used excluding amplifier (which take more grunt to work with a capacitive or extremely low near purely resistive load).
 
Basically, it's not nearly as expensive getting a really good performing headphone new in comparison.

 

[bcasey25raptor]

thanks everyone. i always thought head fiers liked headphones more do to the fact they are more personal and dont bug people around you.

 

[Ishcabible]

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my shure headphones sound better then my 100$ logitech speakers but is it a general rule that speakers are cheaper or more expensive.
 
whats the better value for the money.

It depends on how lucky you are. It's easy to get a set of planars or great vintage speakers for the price of mid-fi headphones, if you're willing to wait. People tend to overlook the older/diy stuff in place of the new, shiny, expensive stuff. Strike me down if I ever find a pair of headphones that beat a pair of vintage AMT speakers, Maggies, or if you're especially lucky, Carver ribbons for the same price ($300-400ish) they tend to go for locally.

If it's quasi-ribbon speakers you're looking to compare to, even lower cost headphones tend to have substantially lower distortion which is worth noting.  Generally to get speakers with similar performance of headphones technically you're looking at something like a used pair of Martin Logans (stats, not ribbon or primarily cone based).  Not sure how true ribbons compare though, so maybe true ribbon Maggies could also be considered.  Either way if I'm not mistaken you're still looking at around ~1K used excluding amplifier (which take more grunt to work with a capacitive or extremely low near purely resistive load).
 
Basically, it's not nearly as expensive getting a really good performing headphone new in comparison.

True, and really? I've always been able to find entry level Magnepans (MMG, MG1/2's) for $400 used at the most, but the Carvers are exceedingly rare to find for cheap when I bother to look, but there's a local auction for AL-III's that I'm watching. And the AMT 1a is easy to find around $300 around here if aesthetics aren't paramount.
 
And yeah, I forgot about the amping part...oops. That's going to total at least as much as the speakers in all likelihood. But then again, good headphone amps don't come cheap either.

 

[Happy Camper]

In answer to your thread heading, yes, headphones are cheaper for similar performance to speakers. The definition of performance may not be the same to everybody though.

 

[Shike]

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True, and really? I've always been able to find entry level Magnepans (MMG, MG1/2's) for $400 used at the most

Read what I said again -- those are quasi-ribbons which tend to have substantial distortion in comparison (not push-pull like stats and, from what I understand, true ribbon speakers).  Speaking from a technical standpoint I can think of many headphones under $400 that utterly decimate them when it comes to accurate reproduction.
 
 
 
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, but the Carvers are exceedingly rare to find for cheap when I bother to look, but there's a local auction for AL-III's that I'm watching. And the AMT 1a is easy to find around $300 around here if aesthetics aren't paramount.

 
The Carver may be the exception to the rule if it isn't too hard to drive and is a true ribbon.  AMT isn't a ribbon afaik, it seems more like the foil used in some of ML's new offerings for their tweeter.  IIRC it has some odd distortion characteristics but I'd have to look it up.
 
 
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And yeah, I forgot about the amping part...oops. That's going to total at least as much as the speakers in all likelihood. But then again, good headphone amps don't come cheap either.

 
The problem with ribbon and ESL speakers that I know of is you have some dipping below 4 ohms in a lot of cases, it's not like a gainclone that can power them nearly as easily as a pair of mid phase 4 ohms at their lowest impedance dynamics can be used and not expecting it to clip at all.  Quasi-ribbons are actually relatively easy to power, but then you have a good chunk of THD as mentioned before.
 
As for headphone amps - a good amp can be had at a reasonable price if you believe in solid electrical engineering principles.  I got an AV123 X-Head B-stock for $115 before they went under.  No distortion (not even clipping), solid power from 32-600 ohms, low output impedance, everything else about it in terms of measurements is rock solid.  The only way this would be insufficient is if you don't believe in the validity of electrical engineering and physics.  While one would be hard pressed to find something for $115, I believe Schiit has the Asgard for $250 which would accomplish the same thing.
 
The only time I could imagine it getting expensive amping headphones is when they go a bit above 600 ohms like the T1.  It would probably take a moderately price tube amp to put out the necessary voltages.

 

[RexAeterna]

it depends on how lucky you are and know what your looking for. i spent less on my amps and speakers then i did my headphones. most i paid for headphones is 119 bucks(akg 240s). most i paid for an amp i use for both speakers and headphones is 65 bucks(1972 Sansui 5000x). most i spent on speakers is 85 bucks(2-way Technics sb-t200).

 i really love my akg 240's and sound compareable when it comes to a natural sound reproduction,but lacks a little in the imagery department but the akgs give better detail. my speakers are very detailed but it's just a few small little micro-details i can't detect that i can with my akg 240's but they complement each other wonderfully and they match in colors 

i also have a pair of vintage 1970's 4-way pioneer cs-77a with a lovely tweeter horn and uses cloth surrounds for the woofers i paid 20 bucks for. very heavy speakers but amazing craftsmanship. sounds great but i prefer the sound of my technics(maybe cause i'm not use to hearing tweeter horns)   
 

 

[RexAeterna]

it's not just ribbons but lot of speakers dip and rise impedance at certain frequencies. it's just natural to do so. a good amplifier engineer knows this. i am not claiming to be one or any type of expert but from what i understand it's only common sense and basic knowledge. lot of dynamic,planer,electrostatic have dips  from anywhere 4ohms to low as around 0.01ohms and high as 100ohms in resistance. it comes down on how the amplifier is designed and if it can handle the consent change of loads or just simply cap to a certain load preventing from overloading the power amp boards and blowing transistors but limiting the speakers capabilities at certain frequency ranges. i'm not sure how modern amps are designed but lot of receiver/amps back then from the late 60's to early 80's had no trouble with 4ohm load speakers. a well built amplifier can easily double it's output power lower the impedance.
 
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cheap either.
 
The problem with ribbon and ESL speakers that I know of is you have some dipping below 4 ohms in a lot of cases

 

[9pintube]

With out a doubt, Even your High Dollar Headphones (reference cans) if you will, are way cheaper then a good quality speaker system........ But as many will tell you, when you listen to headphones the most important difference between the two systems is the FACT that you are taking the ROOM Acoustics, good or bad, out of the equation while listening to music with Headphones......Do they reproduce the all important "sound stage or Image" like a well designed and equipped sound system, IMO, HELL NO.........are they a great way to listen to music (without disturbing others) HELL YES.........

 

[Shike]

 
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it's not just ribbons but lot of speakers dip and rise impedance at certain frequencies. it's just natural to do so. a good amplifier engineer knows this. i am not claiming to be one or any type of expert but from what i understand it's only common sense and basic knowledge. lot of dynamic,planer,electrostatic have dips  from anywhere 4ohms to low as around 0.01ohms and high as 100ohms in resistance. it comes down on how the amplifier is designed and if it can handle the consent change of loads or just simply cap to a certain load preventing from overloading the power amp boards and blowing transistors but limiting the speakers capabilities at certain frequency ranges. i'm not sure how modern amps are designed but lot of receiver/amps back then from the late 60's to early 80's had no trouble with 4ohm load speakers. a well built amplifier can easily double it's output power lower the impedance.
 
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cheap either.
 
The problem with ribbon and ESL speakers that I know of is you have some dipping below 4 ohms in a lot of cases

You're not reading what I'm saying.  A lot of dynamics dip in impedance, but it's a rarity for them to go nearly as low as some ESLs and ribbons.  Even a pair of Martin Logans go below  2 ohms.  I have yet to see a reasonable dynamic speaker do that -- and even if it does I specifically excluded them since they're in the minority of speakers.  Then you have ribbons such as Apogee that go insanely low over the whole spectrum (we're talking 2 ohms) that most amps just can't handle.
 
With ribbons and ESLs it generally common knowledge that you're going to need a beefier amp in most situations -- definitely for true ribbons.
 
PS:
 
This is what I wrote:
 
 
 
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The problem with ribbon and ESL speakers that I know of is you have some dipping below 4 ohms in a lot of cases, it's not like a gainclone that can power them nearly as easily as a pair of mid phase 4 ohms at their lowest impedance dynamics

 
As you can see, I was exluding those that go below 4 ohms in terms of dynamics -- they're rare in comparison.

 

[Hayang]

Question: why don't people mention, say, studio nearfield monitors in discussions about good speakers?
Focal, Adam, KRK, etc.

 

[Ishcabible]

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True, and really? I've always been able to find entry level Magnepans (MMG, MG1/2's) for $400 used at the most

Read what I said again -- those are quasi-ribbons which tend to have substantial distortion in comparison (not push-pull like stats and, from what I understand, true ribbon speakers).  Speaking from a technical standpoint I can think of many headphones under $400 that utterly decimate them when it comes to accurate reproduction.
 
 

 
Oops, sorry skimmed over that.

 

[xaval]

Get a decen pair of speakers and the soundstage concept applied to cans will take an all together different meaning as in... cans, soundstage... WHAT?

 

[haloxt]

Generally speaking headphones have more detail, but I wouldn't let that be the deciding factor unless you are just aiming for detail. There's a lot of difference between different headphones, same with speakers. To me aiming for my preferred sound signature is more important than aiming for perfect detail.