[earwicker7]

Exactly! I don't know of any integrated amps with balanced output. Until they have these, as far as I'm concerned, that's case closed. NO integrated headphone jack is going to sound as good as a quality balanced amp.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif It still rings fresh in my ears when I listen to my headphones and receiver today.

Something still rings in my ears too, but I'm pretty sure it's tinnitus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif This whole idea that one has to hear a bunch of headphone amps to recognize quality audio on headphones is ridiculous and carries no water. It is only valid if headphone hifi is the only hifi you have ever heard, your only frame of reference. Otherwise, it is a little more than a thinly-veiled excuse to dismiss the opinions of people who disagree with you. Tim

Give it up, Tim. You may have an open mind, but I wouldn't assume that virtue for others. There are vested interests here.

That's it for me. See you in another thread, where enlightenment might be more easily bestowed. Or not.

 

[FallenAngel]

One does not need to hear "a bunch of headphone amps to recognize quality audio on headphones", they just need to hear a couple of good amps, nothing more.

 

[indianbraker]

hearing many amps does help as far as hearing how different amps can affect overall sound...if i could try out a bunch of different amps i could achieve different sounds suited for different types of music with the same set of headphones...well somewhat different sounds since the signiture of the sound is dependent on the set of cans.

 

[Tiemen]

Is the Musical Fidelity X-can V3 a quality headphone amp? It sure cost enough.
I sold it because I liked the headhone out of my Denon preamp better.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, should have noticed that before. tfarney: Take me up on my offer, I'll let you borrow one of my moderately priced headphone amps, compare it to any high-end receiver you have and tell me what you think.

It's a generous offer and I appreciate it, but there really is no point. I've heard headphone amps (I had a very nice one in here for a week just a couple of weeks ago) and I'm not trying to say that the headphone jacks of my receivers (or anyone's) are better than all headphone amps or even better than all of the ones I've heard. I'm trying to say that the knee-jerk reaction of assuming that the headphone jack of all receivers are a cheap afterthought and insisting that everyone who posts a question here needs a dedicated amp is wrong. I would, in fact, recommend the opposite: Pick you headphones. Plug them in and see what you've got. You might be good to go. Hell, you might spend more time listening to music, less fussing over equipment, and be better off.

I'm not trying to say that there is no difference between headphone and speaker listening either. I'm trying to say that the idea that you must have been to a meet and heard a bunch of headphone amps to know if what you're hearing from your phones is good or not is ridiculous. Yes, headphones present music differently. Headphones give you a better opportunity to listen in to detail and they eliminate the opportunity to hear a realistic sound stage. They do not negate all listening experience and understanding of what hifi sounds like prior to slapping on a pair of phones. Good sound reproduction is good sound reproduction. If you've heard it enough, if you know what it sounds like, you will be able to recognize it when you hear it again, in another speaker system, in a dedicated headphone amp, or from the headphone jack of your integrated amp. A listening experience that includes high quality recordings and high quality reproduction is prerequisite. Having heard a B22 and a Singlepower is not.

The absurdity of this argument is stunning.

Tim

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif One does not need to hear "a bunch of headphone amps to recognize quality audio on headphones", they just need to hear a couple of good amps, nothing more.

Then we're good. I just had the Glow here for a week. I've heard a couple of Headroom's home products. I've heard a dozen or more good studio systems. They all sounded good, particularly the little Glow. None of them made the headphone jacks of either of my receivers sound like a cheap afterthought, and those headphone jacks would probably deliver a perfectly satisfying listening experience on good, high-impedance phones for 99% of the people who stroll in here looking for advice on cans, only to be told that there really is no point in buying good ones if they're not going to drop another $500 on a dedicated amp.

Tim

 

[HeadLover]

I don't get the argue
If someone wants to get a good audio quality, why not buying an headphones amp ?
If I don't have or don't need receiver, and can spend the same 300-600 $ on a good one, why not?

The all site here is about headphones, so why not making the best out of them?

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadLover /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't get the argue If someone wants to get a good audio quality, why not buying an headphones amp ? If I don't have or don't need receiver, and can spend the same 300-600 $ on a good one, why not? The all site here is about headphones, so why not making the best out of them?

Remove the provacative title of this thread and the heart of the larger argument, Headlover, is not about the value of dedicated headphone amps. It is about intellectual honesty.

Tim

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadLover /img/forum/go_quote.gif If u want high quality, u just can't denied that headphones amp are way better.

Uh.....no.....not necessarily. Also, please learn to type correctly and maybe check your spelling. This isn't IRC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadLover /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think we can sum this thread by saying that when u compare a descent amp to a descent rec, both costing 300$ to 600$ It is a sure thing, the heapdhones amp will win In fact at 600$ u can buy something really good! (even the portable amps are startting to be very good at that price range - look at the PICO )

Not true at all. I hope no one here is making any such claim. There are some pretty crappy headphone amps out there, and some are pricey. There are also some amazing headphone amps out there, and not all of them are pricey. It also depends on which headphones you're using with which amp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indianbraker /img/forum/go_quote.gif hearing many amps does help as far as hearing how different amps can affect overall sound...if i could try out a bunch of different amps i could achieve different sounds suited for different types of music with the same set of headphones...well somewhat different sounds since the signiture of the sound is dependent on the set of cans.

Yes, and that's the point. If you're not in a position to hear a lot of amps before making a choice, be selective with your research. Are you taking the advice of well-meaning, enthusiastic members who have maybe only heard one or two before, and with maybe only one or two headphones? Are you letting yourself gets sucked into "this is the best!" posting without asking more questions: which cans, which source, and again, most importantly, which headphone amps and/or integrated, receivers, etc. have they heard before so that you know they have frames of reference to be able to say anything at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiemen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is the Musical Fidelity X-can V3 a quality headphone amp? It sure cost enough. I sold it because I liked the headhone out of my Denon preamp better.

I have never liked that amp, and have said so on many occasions. I think it's mediocre at best with headphones I'd heard it was made for, and one of my first lessons in what you read ("it's great with Senns," etc.) won't mean it matches with experience once heard. Depending on which cans used (please qualify your statements to be helpful to others), your preamp may be better, but also, how do you mean "better": increased clarity? detail? more realistic imaging? We might have very different definitions of what that means.

Folks, anyone taking the extreme in either position is wrong. Anyone who also says that experience with a variety of headphone amps isn't important is also wrong, even if they have a background in audio. Anyone who doesn't pay attention to who is posting recommendations, what cans they're using, what experience they have, etc. might want to take a look at that before believing anything, and especially before putting money down.

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadLover /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't get the argue

You don't get it because you are still in the mind set of 'something must be better than the other'.

Read Tim's post carefully. The real question should be: "Who defines 'better' and based on what?" Where is the iron law that tell us A must be better than B or vise versa? What kind of solid proof can one produces to state such law in an indisputable way? In the end, you should be the judge of what works best for you, cause there is no such thing as 'iron law on how to spend your money on audio equipment'.

As far as I can see, the thread is getting no where cause all the discussion are running in circle.

 

[Tiemen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have never liked that amp, and have said so on many occasions. I think it's mediocre at best with headphones I'd heard it was made for, and one of my first lessons in what you read ("it's great with Senns," etc.) won't mean it matches with experience once heard. Depending on which cans used (please qualify your statements to be helpful to others), your preamp may be better, but also, how do you mean "better": increased clarity? detail? more realistic imaging? We might have very different definitions of what that means.

I didn't say the headphone out of the Denon is better than the X-can.
I said I like it better. It's more suited for my pop/rock/country collection.
The Denon is less bright, is warmer, has fuller mids, more of a cohesive sound, and much deeper bass.
The X-can has more speed, clarity and treble detail, but that makes it fatiguing with my often bad recorded collection.
The cans I used to compare:
Sennheiser HD 580
Denon AH-D2000
AKG K400
AKG K601

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiemen /img/forum/go_quote.gif I didn't say the headphone out of the Denon is better than the X-can. I said I like it better. It's more suited for my pop/rock/country collection. The Denon is less bright, warmer, fuller mids, has more of a cohesive sound, and much deeper bass. The X-can has more speed, clarity and treble detail, but that makes it fatiguing with my often bad recorded collection. The cans I used to compare: Sennheiser HD 580 Denon AH-D2000 AKG K400 AKG K601

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Folks, anyone taking the extreme in either position is wrong.

This I completely agree with.

Quote:

Anyone who also says that experience with a variety of headphone amps isn't important is also wrong, even if they have a background in audio.

This requires more data. If I have experienced the effects that very different amplifiers have in a system, if I have enough depth of experience to understand and hear the differences in FR, dynamic range, etc, etc, and the differences between headphone and speaker listening, what am I going to hear, in listening to a broad range of audio amplifiers designed to amplify headphones that will further inform my listening? I'm not talking about the technical differences between an amp focused on a load between 32 and 300 ohms, or current vs. voltage, but what I'm going to hear in a single power vs a GS Solo that I am not going to hear in a McIntosh vs a NuForce?

Tim

 

[senns&nonsense]

I currently have on my desk a LD MKIV SE, a CI Audio VHP, and a Cary Preamp that the manual describes as having a "glorious sounding" headphone section.

And I agree with TFarney!

The best values I have seen in 1 1/2 years of this craziness has been the headphone jacks out of vintage gear and even some modern receivers and preamps. It is VERY hit-and-miss - no question. But there are useful "trends". NAD is often great. I have found Nikko stuff to have brilliant headphone sections. The threads Farney has contributed to have many other "tips" for people who might like to try and avoid a very expensive headamp.

Are the expensive headamps worth it? Yes, to me and to lots of others. They sound really good and you can count on them to sound good when you buy them (for the most part). The other options are much less predictable, but at a fraction of the price! You can find this stuff on ebay or craigs and it might cost 1/10 of a dedicated unit and might sound 95% as good.

That is arguably much more interesting and much more useful than whether tube-rolling the LD is a good way to tweak SQ (not that I don't enjoy doing that!).

And to touch on a similar theme from other threads..... I do think amps above a certain level of quality (and whether from dedicated units or not) are exagerated in their importance in the hierarchy of what contributes to ultimate sound quality. I have, to my own shock and dismay(!!), become a person who cares a lot about recables and ICS and the like. I care about them because I hear a BIG difference and when I swap cables on Sennheisers I am shocked that there is even any debate. I tend to stop reading impressions by anyone who cannot hear a difference between a HD600 with a stock cable and one w/ Cardas. To me that difference is much more stark than the difference between a group of high quality headphone jacks wherever they may be found.

And the fact that high quality jacks can sometimes be found on gear for leass than $100 is a fact that should be celebrated and widely discussed because it is so helpful when starting out in this hobby or when budget is a constraint. Instead it is too often dismissed by people who, perhaps, have heard plenty of dedictaed headamps but maybe not enough HP jacks out of components.

If people (me included) still think it is worthwhile to try to get the last bit of SQ by moving up the price chain, that does not mean that the best values are not lower down. And further, a less expensive component HP jack might be the single best way to economize while building a set-up on a budget that has the best possible SQ. The typical argument that component HP jacks are mostly just "after thoughts" is just one of the worst and most harmful bits of well-worn advice that gets tossed out all the time around here.