[rds]

I don't see the point of the argument. Amp A or amp B might sound good enough to you, but what is that supposed to convince me of? I know plenty of people who find their ipod to be good enough and wouldn't be bothered to try out any kind of amp or DAC (or even know what one is).
If someone thinks their porta pros are good enough that's great news for their wallet, but I don't thinks it's grounds to argue that more expensive headphones are pointless.
I really do think everyone has a level at which point something is good enough. It is a combination of what they can afford and what they can justify in their own mind. I've had people listen to very high end setups and tell me they can't really tell the difference from their ipod. I don't argue with them - it's a subjective determination. But if they were to start arguing that this proves that there is no qualitative difference I would find that a little weird.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by senns&nonsense /img/forum/go_quote.gif And the fact that high quality jacks can sometimes be found on gear for leass than $100 is a fact that should be celebrated and widely discussed because it is so helpful when starting out in this hobby or when budget is a constraint. Instead it is too often dismissed by people who, perhaps, have heard plenty of dedictaed headamps but maybe not enough HP jacks out of components. If people (me included) still think it is worthwhile to try to get the last bit of SQ by moving up the price chain, that does not mean that the best values are not lower down. And further, a less expensive component HP jack might be the single best way to economize while building a set-up on a budget that has the best possible SQ. The typical argument that component HP jacks are mostly just "after thoughts" is just one of the worst and most harmful bits of well-worn advice that gets tossed out all the time around here.

Yaaa! Just had to come back for this one. At last someone other than Tim is talking sense (or is it "Senns"?); his call for intellectual honesty has been answered. I'm a happy man again.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't see the point of the argument. Amp A or amp B might sound good enough to you, but what is that supposed to convince me of? I know plenty of people who find their ipod to be good enough and wouldn't be bothered to try out any kind of amp or DAC (or even know what one is). If someone thinks their porta pros are good enough that's great news for their wallet, but I don't thinks it's grounds to argue that more expensive headphones are pointless. I really do think everyone has a level at which point something is good enough. It is a combination of what they can afford and what they can justify in their own mind. I've had people listen to very high end setups and tell me they can't really tell the difference from their ipod. I don't argue with them - it's a subjective determination. But if they were to start arguing that this proves that there is no qualitative difference I would find that a little weird.

Well said. This seems like a 10+ page thread on affordability, not quality. I don't think anyone is arguing that "I know you're on a budget and you already have an integrated..." is bad advice. But come on, this is a headphone site! People need to save the budget argument for cars and houses and attractive wives; you know, the stuff that nutjub audiophiles like myself go without so that they can have their audio toys

.

 

[vcoheda]

^^

x2. good post rds.

 

[bada bing]

From a purely technical standpoint - integrated amp headphone jacks that use resistors to step down voltage are going to change the frequency response of headphones compared to a properly designed, low impedance headphone amp. That is a fact. Intentionally adding output resistance to an audio amp is never a positive thing to do. How detrimental it is depends on a lot of factors. There are definitely situations where it won't be noticeably negative. And others where it is obvious.

I'm sure certain combinations of receiver jack and cans could even be considered "synergistic" because the coloration is pleasing. And no doubt, the amps behind some receiver jacks are world class. But as an all around headphone driver for the gambit of headphone impedances and impedance/frequency response curves, adding resistance is a pretty bad handicap to place on an amp design.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bada bing /img/forum/go_quote.gif From a purely technical standpoint - integrated amp headphone jacks that use resistors to step down voltage are going to change the frequency response of headphones compared to a properly designed, low impedance headphone amp. That is a fact. Intentionally adding output resistance to an audio amp is never a positive thing to do. How detrimental it is depends on a lot of factors. There are definitely situations where it won't be noticeably negative. And others where it is obvious. I'm sure certain combinations of receiver jack and cans could even be considered "synergistic" because the coloration is pleasing. And no doubt, the amps behind some receiver jacks are world class. But as an all around headphone driver for the gambit of headphone impedances and impedance/frequency response curves, adding resistance is a pretty bad handicap to place on an amp design.

This has been acknowledged in a couple of places among the three threads on this subject that have surfaced lately. I don't think anyone who has looked into it with any depth would deny that you're right. I'd just make a minor change to your first sentence:

"From a purely theoretical standpoint - integrated amp headphone jacks that use resistors to step down voltage are going to change the frequency response of headphones compared to a properly designed, low impedance headphone amp."

Of course, from a purely practical standpoint, almost all amps, regardless of design, change the FR of the transducers they drive. It's a matter of how, and how much, which would lead me to put special emphasis on another sentence in your post:

There are definitely situations where it won't be noticeably negative.

And I'd add that there are many such situations.

Really, this is all I've been trying to say: We've been painting headphone jacks with a broad, uninformed, misguided brush. We've been repeating errors as if they were religion. We've been telling people that there is no point in buying 600s/650s/880s/701s....if they don't invest in a dedicated amp and we have backed up our assertions with misinformation.

And we have been, to put it as plainly as possible, wrong. Yet we continue to vigorously defend our falsehoods. The psychology is compelling, to say the least.

Here's the truth: Resistors at the output stage can alter the FR of headphoones. The effect is usually negligible in high impedance phones. You may not even notice it in low impedance phones. The headphone jacks of quite a few integrated amps and receivers out there sound good.

Listen.

Tim

 

[DefectiveAudioComponent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's the truth: Resistors at the output stage can alter the FR of headphoones. The effect is usually negligible in high impedance phones. You may not even notice it in low impedance phones. The headphone jacks of quite a few integrated amps and receivers out there sound good.

It's good to finally arrive at the truth after 15 pages of talk!

Now, we need a thread discussing which integrated sound good, and what characteristics they have!
(A thread where the discussion just finished here would not arrive again)

 

[Palantiri7]

Um, well, my heaphone amp sure sounds very nice now with some new Mullard 8100 tubes!

On the other hand, the little headphone amp can't serve up dynamics and raw power into a K701 like a NAD integrated, but I'd go deaf first trying to find that out at the required volume!

 

[earwicker7]

So you guys are proposing that, when someone asks if they need a headphone amp, we say "No, of course not. What you need to do is either buy a super expensive new integrated amp or spend the next five months searching eBay, hoping that one of the three models from the 70s with good jacks shows up."

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you guys are proposing that, when someone asks if they need a headphone amp, we say "No, of course not. What you need to do is either buy a super expensive new integrated amp or spend the next five months searching eBay, hoping that one of the three models from the 70s with good jacks shows up."

No, we're proposing that when someone asks about "properly" amping their high-impedance phones, or asks if they really need a headphone amp for X cans, that we tell them there are a lot of good amp and receiver headphone sections, a lot of good dedicated amps, a few great ones. Tell them a great place to start may currently be wired into their speaker system. Tell them to use their ears and their judgment and decide how deep into the rabbit hole they want to go. In other words, tell them the truth instead of repeating the erroneous conventional wisdom of the board that has made us feel so much better about our credit card debt, or spewing the kind of snide misinformation you wrote above.

Tim

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, we're proposing that when someone asks about "properly" amping their high-impedance phones, or asks if they really need a headphone amp for X cans, that we tell them there are a lot of good amp and receiver headphone sections, a lot of good dedicated amps, a few great ones. Tell them a great place to start may currently be wired into their speaker system. Tell them to use their ears and their judgment and decide how deep into the rabbit hole they want to go. In other words, tell them the truth instead of repeating the erroneous conventional wisdom of the board that has made us feel so much better about our credit card debt, or spewing the kind of snide misinformation you wrote above. Tim

Call it snide if you like, but for most of the people who support the "jacks are just as good" idea, their view on this issue seems to be designed so that they can "feel so much better" about their own setup. It's always fun to watch people who swear that an iPod is just as good as a dedicated CDP until they actually own a CDP, at which time their view does a full 180.

BTW, I have zero credit card debt; as a matter of fact, I don't have a credit card at all, just a debit card. Everything I own is paid for. Call it silly, but my dad raised me to believe that credit cards are evil.

 

[senns&nonsense]

Hey Earwicker, how would you explain me???? How would you write off my enthusiasm for the headphone jacks on, for example, NAD and Nikko preamps when I am sitting here listening to a Cary preamp? The Cary sounds fantastic but that isn't nearly as helpful or interesting to most people as the incredible possibilities to be found for chump change on Craigs/Fleabay!

No 180 for me as I moved up the food chain.

In fact, while I am currently enjoying some higher-end stuff, I am even more amazed by my first great purchase: A 30 year-old Nikko integrated that had a wonderful HP jack and cost me $55 delivered to my door! And while the Cary obviously outplays that Nikko, the Nikko was better than anything I heard from headroom for up to about $600. The insistence on keeping that kind of thing a secret is beyond me.....

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Call it snide if you like, but for most of the people who support the "jacks are just as good" idea, their view on this issue seems to be designed so that they can "feel so much better" about their own setup. It's always fun to watch people who swear that an iPod is just as good as a dedicated CDP until they actually own a CDP, at which time their view does a full 180. BTW, I have zero credit card debt; as a matter of fact, I don't have a credit card at all, just a debit card. Everything I own is paid for. Call it silly, but my dad raised me to believe that credit cards are evil.

If you think "jacks are just as good" is the idea here, you're not reading, just responding to the thread title.

Tim

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by senns&nonsense /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hey Earwicker, how would you explain me????

The same way I'd explain my taste with guitars/basses... I don't like top of the line equipment. I prefer the sound of an old Fender bass with passive pickups to something like a Pedulla with active pickups, but I don't think for a second that it's more versatile. In addition to letting you play more styles (slapping isn't that good on a old Fender) the active pickups are going to give you a much more "accurate" sound. I don't like that in guitars (not a big fan of string buzz and other extraneous stuff that is picked up), but I think it's the goal for most audiophiles, which is why I think dedicated amps are a must.

 

[vcoheda]

i think if someone has an integrated amp or preamp with a headphone jack, there is clearly no harm in trying it out to see how the headphones will sound. the question is does it sound as good as a moderately priced headphone amp or whatever one's budget can afford. that's the problem. hard to say other than by comparison.

a lot of questions in this hobby and i would say in audio in general are only figured out through direct comparison by the listener, and i would say that is also where most of the fun/enjoyment lies as well.

however, i would add that when you are talking about the top or high end amps in this hobby, i sincerely doubt that most or really the vast majority of integrated amps can compete with them.