[HugoFreire]

Good old days in Japan...
Mint condition R10s for 150,000 yens in 2000.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif History actually disagrees with you. When it was announced that these were being discontinued and Amazon had them on sale for ~$4000, along with Audio Advancements and the other various places selling them for $4-4.5k, they were bought up like hot cakes. Why is that exactly?

Because they were GOING TO BE DISCOUNTINUED! You do realize that when they were in production, Sony could not sell them right? The same thing happens here. The second we find out something is going to be discontinued, the prices in the FS forum go up. Look at how fast the price of the K1000 went up around here...

History does not disagree with me. They have gradually gone up over time. Look here, look at audiogon, look at places in Japan. They have continued to go up gradually over time. This is not rocket science. They are going up because they are harder to find, thus their value continues to increase. This is evident in nearly every other hobby, just as immtbiker suggested.


Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just think it's painfully obvious that their technical ability is a far greater determining factor on their price than their rarity, and we will just continue to agree to disagree on that point.

How is this painfully obvious. Please explain. Their technical ability has not changed since the day they have been released. Period. Their availability is much more of a factor in regards to price.

Saying that people have just gradually begun to understand that it is technically superior doesn't any sense among head-fiers because we have understood that they were the king of dynamics years ago. Sure, people want it because its the best, but they are *only* willing to pay the prices that are required because the market makes it so they cannot pay less.

There is no other way to explain why these continue to go up. But hey...maybe your right. More and more people just continue to realize that they are the best.

 

[purk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif How is this painfully obvious. Please explain. Their technical ability has not changed since the day they have been released. Period. Their availability is much more of a factor in regards to price. Saying that people have just gradually begun to understand that it is technically superior doesn't any sense among head-fiers because we have understood that they were the king of dynamics years ago. Sure, people want it because its the best, but they are *only* willing to pay the prices that are required because the market makes it so they cannot pay less. There is no other way to explain why these continue to go up. But hey...maybe your right. More and more people just continue to realize that they are the best.

To be honest, there technical ability has changed a bit thanks to much better amplification in today's market. And of course, I agree with you that people are willing to pay that price b/c of their sound quality coupled with the economics.

 

[riceboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Saying that any headphone is in a different league in comparison to the K1000 doesn't make much sense at all.

I guess your quote didn't make sense at all since again have you heard the K1000s and R10s in a really good setup side by side. If you haven't of course you may not understand. Again this hobby is subjective and you might hear both in a good system and say that the R10s aren't good at all. That is fine as well

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just goes to show you how much of an attachment we end up having with certain cans. I am sure the R10's sound great, but I highly, highly doubt that they are technically worth 3-6x the price of the DX1000, W5000, HE60, O2's etc. Call it what it is, a rarity. It sells for those prices because of its rarity, not because of it's technical performance.

It is fine to doubt things as we all do, but to believe that something isn't technically worth the price without really hearing a R10 side by side with the cans you mentioned how can you be 100% sure. That is the point I was getting at. I have doubts on what others have said on certain cans and after a while I purchase the cans and make up my own mind, before I discount anything.

As mentioned earlier we are all just enjoying the music in the end and if some feel that the R10s are not worth the price that is fine

, but coming to statements like the above without really hearing them side by side with those cans you mentioned; you are coming from a standpoint with no solid ground as you haven't had a chance to really compare the R10 in a great system side by side with those cans. For me I let the ears and cans do the talking and again it is only what I hear, but you may hear differently as well

.

 

[4N6]

Well said, Riceboy.

To number1sixerfan, please see my signature.

 

[riceboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4N6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said, Riceboy. To number1sixerfan, please see my signature.

Hi 4n6

. He actually saw your quote earlier to and he responded below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let me put it to you like this, I have owned(and still own one of them) several of the out of production headphones and I loved each and every one of them. But I can put aside my affection for the HE60, K1000, HP1000, etc. for one second to realize how price inelastic these items have become. And the minute you point this out, all the fanboys take offense and go in attack mode. Each one of these cans are great, but when you purchase them you are going above and beyond what they were originally(technically) worth due to the lack of availability and current competition. The problem here is that value and worth is subjective. Many are willing to pay anything for that extra 5, 10, 15+ percent increase. However, a good reference for the price to performance ratio would be what the manufacturer originally set it at...

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by riceboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess your quote didn't make sense at all since again have you heard the K1000s and R10s in a really good setup side by side. If you haven't of course you may not understand. Again this hobby is subjective and you might hear both in a good system and say that the R10s aren't good at all. That is fine as well . .

You don't have to hear something to put things into perspective. Have you read ed's comparison of the K1000 and the R10? Along with other reviews it shows that from a technical standpoint one may not be necessarily better. To go a step above that and say that one or the other is in a different league is just a bit of exaggeration and it happens around here all the time(with a bunch of different gear).

But even when people in this thread have said that they have heard it, and said it's not worth it for them, people come in and dismiss as "not having the right setup"...Some people just don't like hearing not so positive comments about their gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by riceboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif you are coming from a standpoint with no solid ground as you haven't had a chance to really compare the R10 in a great system side by side with those cans. For me I let the ears and cans do the talking and again it is only what I hear, but you may hear differently as well .

The solid stanpoint is called appreciation. It is evident in other hobbies as well. But again, your right because opinion is subjective they could be $13,000 and some people would argue that they are technically worth it.

I cannot say that these people are wrong, because it is subjective but again the original price is a very good indicator of the price to performance ratio.

At the end of the day, worth is in the eye of the beholder...

 

[jpelg]

Silly arguments. Not to mention tiresome. The answer to this tangental debate, as purk previously posted, is "both".

The bottom line is that if someone is willing to pay the price, then it is obviously "worth" it to them. Whether it is "worth" that price to everyone is immaterial, other than it sets a precedent for future pricing.

The truth is that anyone complaining about the high price to TOTL, discontinued cans have a severe case of sour grapes. I can't afford a $6k R10 today, any more than I could afford a $2500 one in 2002. Given the state of support (or lack thereof) for these expensive cans, they are so off my radar that I don't consider them real options. It's really that simple.

 

[krmathis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HugoFreire /img/forum/go_quote.gif Good old days in Japan... Mint condition R10s for 150,000 yens in 2000.

Yeah! The prices certainly have changed...
But so have the availability and demand of the MDR-R10.

 

[powertoold]

Welcome to the hi-end hi-fi Head-Fi zone, where money is just a number and improvements are viewed with a magnifying glass.

I agree with number1sixerfan.

I can understand when someone says a high-end headphone is in another league compared to others, but it's another thing to say it's in another league technically. With audio, any "imperfections" in the reproduction can prevent pure absorption in the music, so if two headphones, with similar technical abilities, have different signatures, one of which is preferable, then the preferable headphone will be considered "leagues above". It's a subjective matter, and having the perfect headphone can be worth thousands to those who have money or value music. I doubt the R10 is leagues above others in technical ability (which can be determined by looking at numbers). It simply has a sound signature that some people love!

 

[purk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by powertoold /img/forum/go_quote.gif Welcome to the hi-end hi-fi Head-Fi zone, where money is just a number and improvements are viewed with a magnifying glass. I agree with number1sixerfan. I can understand when someone says a high-end headphone is in another league compared to others, but it's another thing to say it's in another league technically. With audio, any "imperfections" in the reproduction can prevent pure absorption in the music, so if two headphones, with similar technical abilities, have different signatures, one of which is preferable, then the preferable headphone will be considered "leagues above". It's a subjective matter, and having the perfect headphone can be worth thousands to those who have money or value music. I doubt the R10 is leagues above others in technical ability (which can be determined by looking at numbers). It simply has a sound signature that some people love!

Not exactly, you can't determined everything based on number in this hobby. If so, my Sony MDR-E888 with the frequency response of 8 to 27 khz should have deeper bass and more extened treble than my R10 with frequency response of 20 to 20khz. You can doubt the flavors of the R10 all you want, but you should not doubt its technical ability. To my ears, the R10s is the most detailed headphone out there short of Qualia. They also have one of the widest, and deepest soundstage out of any headphones that I've tried.

 

[vcoheda]

the R10 was an expensive headphone when it was in production. it is also a truly excellent and probably the best dynamic headphone out there. so it is no surprise that the price of the R10 has risen - and some would say dramatically - now that it is no longer available.

 

[riceboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif But even when people in this thread have said that they have heard it, and said it's not worth it for them, people come in and dismiss as "not having the right setup"...Some people just don't like hearing not so positive comments about their gear.

I was one of those people that felt how can the R10 not sound as good because I don't have a better rig?!?! Once I upgraded my rig and mainly source all my other cans sounded better, but the R10s really was a vast improvement.

Again, I see you haven't heard the R10 vs. K1000, or probably PS-1, HP1, HP2, Qualia, etc. Without hearing something and making assumptions that just because something technically on paper is comparable to something else or how can a another can be better or worse since the price difference is great but technically they are similar; but without hearing it is just merely guessing. For example if you drive a car that has the same specs as another car, one might feel that car is better than the other, hence you test drive it. It all depends on your preference of course, but you are coming from a spectrum of guessing without hearing, with no test driving one or the other can. That is my point. If you heard it and say the K1000s is better than the R10s than that would make a lot sense

. Coming from the other end of the spectrum of not hearing the R10 and assuming it can't be better/worse or in another league is hard as you are again guessing and assuming. Again as subtle said it is hard to put a blanket statement on something without hearing it. That is the point I was trying to make, plain and simple.

Once again it isn't that I'm defending a statement about one can being in another league as another as that is all subjective, but the concern I had was your statement without even hearing the R10 vs K1000. I hope that clears things up

 

[purk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by riceboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was one of those people that felt how can the R10 not sound as good because I don't have a better rig?!?! Once I upgraded my rig and mainly source all my other cans sounded better, but the R10s really was a vast improvement.

I had the exact same experience myself. While my L3000, W2002 do sounds a good bit better after my source upgrade, the R10s however do have the most drastic improvement. Same can be said as well b/w my HE90 and the R10. I experienced more improvement with the R10 than the HE90, after I tried upgrade tubes in my modwright/kern Sony SCD-777ES.

 

[mopps]

Hi,

Very interesting hp, indeed. But what about availability of replacement drivers? Heard of durability problems with the 'bio-cellulose'.
Are there really two different versions on market or does the so-called 'bass shy' version mean 'used-up drivers'? Thanks.