[immtbiker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm just curious. Do you think people buy these and just mount them on a wall like piece of art?

When I used to sell audio, an upper east side Manhattan-ite, bought a $40,000 pair of Sonus Faber speakers because the Italian lacquered wooden layers matched her penthouse living room furniture.
I doubt she has ever played music through them, to this day.

 

[riceboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd have to argue, even without hearing them, that this is an absolutely ignorant and absurd statement. Do you truly honestly believe that people would fork over $5000+ for a headphone simply because it is rare? I hope you don't because they wouldn't. People are willing to pay the amount they are for this headphone solely because of its technical ability. Whether or not you feel that attaining that extra 1-10% is worth the extra thousands over the going rate of a K1000 is a personal decision, however it is silly for you to make a definitive statement like the one you have made here. You are clearly entitled to your doubt, as I must admit I have a little myself concerning their ability, however considering you also have not even heard them, how can you possibly claim to know with certainty that people are only buying these headphones because of the rarity? I'm just curious. Do you think people buy these and just mount them on a wall like piece of art?

X2. Here is a quote that may apply here:

"If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion." - Ivor Tiefenbrun, founder of Linn

 

[Aimless1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by riceboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif X2. Here is a quote that may apply here: "If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion." - Ivor Tiefenbrun, founder of Linn

Have to agree with the quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I used to sell audio, an upper east side Manhattan-ite, bought a $40,000 pair of Sonus Faber speakers because the Italian lacquered wooden layers matched her penthouse living room furniture. I doubt she has ever played music through them, to this day.

People buy things for many reasons, many of which are not rational. Appearance, Price (low = cheap or conversely high = best), status, speculaton and sometimes for performance, among others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you truly honestly believe that people would fork over $5000+ for a headphone simply because it is rare? I hope you don't because they wouldn't. People are willing to pay the amount they are for this headphone solely because of its technical ability.

If you've been in sales for a reasonable amount of time you soon learn that people buy things for some of the silliest reasons. So yes, I believe people will spend $5K on a headphone because it is rare, it looks nice, status & etc. The price does not make a purchasing decision rational.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd have to argue, even without hearing them, that this is an absolutely ignorant and absurd statement.

It is a very accurate statement and unfortunately fanboyism and affection towards gear prevent people from realizing it. People are only willing to pay nearly $6000 for this headphone because that is what the market dictates the price will be due to the lack of availability and the reputation the headphone has.

It is simple economics at play here. People are only willing to pay that price for them because that is what is required to own a pair(due to their rareness). Were they techinally worth over $5000 Sony would not have sold them at less than half that price.

Were there hundreds of R10's readily available most people would not fork over $6000 for them.


Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you truly honestly believe that people would fork over $5000+ for a headphone simply because it is rare? I hope you don't because they wouldn't. People are willing to pay the amount they are for this headphone solely because of its technical ability. Whether or not you feel that attaining that extra 1-10% is worth the extra thousands over the going rate of a K1000 is a personal decision, however it is silly for you to make a definitive statement like the one you have made here. You are clearly entitled to your doubt, as I must admit I have a little myself concerning their ability, however considering you also have not even heard them, how can you possibly claim to know with certainty that people are only buying these headphones because of the rarity? I'm just curious. Do you think people buy these and just mount them on a wall like piece of art?

If you think that people only pay that much for these cans because of their technical ability you are truly blind to how supply and demand effects price. Yes people buy the headphone for it's ability, but they only pay that price because they have too.

The only people who probably pay that price regardless if it was required or not are people who are rich with money to throw away.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by riceboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif X2. Here is a quote that may apply here: "If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion." - Ivor Tiefenbrun, founder of Linn

Let me put it to you like this, I have owned(and still own one of them) several of the out of production headphones and I loved each and every one of them.

But I can put aside my affection for the HE60, K1000, HP1000, etc. for one second to realize how price inelastic these items have become. And the minute you point this out, all the fanboys take offense and go in attack mode.

Each one of these cans are great, but when you purchase them you are going above and beyond what they were originally(technically) worth due to the lack of availability and current competition.

The problem here is that value and worth is subjective. Many are willing to pay anything for that extra 5, 10, 15+ percent increase. However, a good reference for the price to performance ratio would be what the manufacturer originally set it at...

 

[Dreadhead]

I'd have to agree that rarity seems to be a big part of the R10s pricing at the same time if other people are willing to buy them from you at that price (which they are) then they become an investment or at least a zero net gain toy (unless you break them).

I have no desire to buy R10s. I have heard them (driven by an SDS XLR and Meridian G08 as well as by my DAC3 and GS-X) and they are really a lot of fun for classical. I don't care what people say (fanboys may continue to delude themselves) they are NOT very detailed or very accurate phones. They are very colored (I did a measurement) but it happens that that coloring is somewhat magical sounding to the human ear. They are very very nice and feel luxurious, and we live in a world of $25000 beds so I'm pretty sure that not a small part of the cost originally was and now is the exclusivity.

If someone was giving them away for free I'd get them and sell them as soon as I can but I highly doubt I will ever own a pair.

 

[immtbiker]

I have removed some posts that were a little personal and off-topic, and some members have felt slighted by some of the comments made in the responses.

Yes, it is absurd to charge $6000 for a $2800 headphone, but unfortunately, due to supply and demand, people can get away with charging outrageous prices for something that is no longer available.

This holds true in any hobby.

Please try to hold the discussion in such a manner that no one is getting attacked personally. Everyone is free to express their opinions on any subject, but please stay away from any slander.

My wife was unemployed for 8 months and I was inches away from selling my most beloved R-10's because they could fetch the most money that I needed to pay the rent. Would I sell them for $4000 because it is a more fair asking price, or $6000 because it is what other's are asking and it would pay my rent, yet another month?

I always try to be as fair as possible, but allowing for my existing situation conditions, and free capitalism, as long as someone is willing to pay $6000, that is what they will be sold for.
Look at the $800 HP1/2 which is now going for $1500-2000, It is a sad state of affairs, but it is a valid reality. Look at the PS1 and the HE-90.

Some might view Lobstersan's selling practices as immoral, but if no one paid that price, he would have to lower his asking price. People say "It's not fair that that person is rich and I'm not", but the reality of it all is, that the commodities market is a game, and he who plays the game better, wins.

Unfortunately, I was never really good at playing these type of games and I have a conscience to a point, and that point is to be able to provide for my family and their bellies.

Bottom line: If you think that the asking price is unfair, then don't buy it, and mumble all you want under your breath.
But please be aware that not everyone here knows everything and what might be obvious to one person, might be something new, to another (regarding the symbol for Yen and other assorted comments).

It's a hobby people, and an expensive one at that. Let's not forget why we are here in the first place, and that is to enjoy music the best we can, within our alloted budgets.

To infinity and beyond!

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, it is absurd to charge $6000 for a $2800 headphone, but unfortunately, due to supply and demand, people can get away with charging outrageous prices for something that is no longer available.

And that is all that I was saying, and people think it's ignorance.

I completely understand why someone would buy the R10 if they had the cash. I don't for one second agree with people who think that paying that amount of cash for that item is "dumb" or "stupid", it just isn't about pure peformance at that point anymore.

If I could afford the R10's I'd be all over them in a heartbeat.

Moving the conversation in a different direction though, I don't necessarily think it's stupid of Sony(or people like Joe Grado and the PS1, etc.) to ignore the demand that exist for the R10's because if they reintroduced them, I don't see things going much different from when they were originally released? Thoughts on this?

 

[Audio-Omega]

Is R10 not neutral sounding ?

 

[Happy Camper]

Sixerfan,

I agree with your last statement on the re-introduction of any of the classics. One of the reasons for people to pay such a large sum above market value is the trophy. You re-introduce them, the thrill is gone. Not re-introducing the legends lends their mystique to the maker's current lines.

 

[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is a very accurate statement and unfortunately fanboyism and affection towards gear prevent people from realizing it. People are only willing to pay nearly $6000 for this headphone because that is what the market dictates the price will be due to the lack of availability and the reputation the headphone has.

No it isn't, and now you're starting to contradict yourself. So which is it?

First you make this ridiculous blanket statement "Call it what it is, a rarity. It sells for those prices because of its rarity, not because of it's technical performance", and now you're trying to backtrack and say oh wait...the reputation the headphone has, which is based solely on its technical performance, actually is a factor in their price. Make up your mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is simple economics at play here. People are only willing to pay that price for them because that is what is required to own a pair(due to their rareness). Were they techinally worth over $5000 Sony would not have sold them at less than half that price.

I completely disagree. They were not sold by Sony for the prices they are going for now because of time. As the years have gone by, headphone enthusiasts have determined that there has yet to be a dynamic produced that has some of the technical capabilities that the R10 possesses. For this reason, and this reason only, they now sell for what the market dictates. Yes rarity plays a small role in the adjustment of their price, however it is their technical ability that gets people to open up their wallets. It's not the wood or ear pads I can tell you that.

How is this not painfully obvious?

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Were there hundreds of R10's readily available most people would not fork over $6000 for them.

Probably not, but they would definitely still fork over $4000-5000 for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you think that people only pay that much for these cans because of their technical ability you are truly blind to how supply and demand effects price. Yes people buy the headphone for it's ability, but they only pay that price because they have too. The only people who probably pay that price regardless if it was required or not are people who are rich with money to throw away.

And vice versa. If you think that people only pay that much for these cans because of their rarity, which you clearly insinuated above, then you are truly blind to rationale. People buy this headphone at the price they do because they have to? No they don't. They can clearly say no thank you and move on to something else. There isn't anyone twisting arms here forcing people to part ways with $6k for the R10. They do so because of the reputation the headphone has earned for its technical ability...and partly because of their unavailability.

 

[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimless1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you've been in sales for a reasonable amount of time you soon learn that people buy things for some of the silliest reasons. So yes, I believe people will spend $5K on a headphone because it is rare, it looks nice, status & etc. The price does not make a purchasing decision rational.

I was in sales for years and yes there is always an exception to the rule, however one or two people are clearly not the majority.

 

[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some might view Lobstersan's selling practices as immoral, but if no one paid that price, he would have to lower his asking price. People say "It's not fair that that person is rich and I'm not", but the reality of it all is, that the commodities market is a game, and he who plays the game better, wins. Bottom line: If you think that the asking price is unfair, then don't buy it, and mumble all you want under your breath. But please be aware that not everyone here knows everything and what might be obvious to one person, might be something new, to another (regarding the symbol for Yen and other assorted comments). It's a hobby people, and an expensive one at that. Let's not forget why we are here in the first place, and that is to enjoy music the best we can, within our alloted budgets. To infinity and beyond!

Very well put Aaron!

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif No it isn't, and now you're starting to contradict yourself. So which is it? First you make this ridiculous blanket statement "Call it what it is, a rarity. It sells for those prices because of its rarity, not because of it's technical performance", and now you're trying to backtrack and say oh wait...the reputation the headphone has, which is based solely on its technical performance, actually is a factor in their price. Make up your mind.

Please don't twist my words. I stated that the supply and demand is what contributed to their price. This is FACT. Their technical performance has not changed over the years. Can you guess what has? Their availability and the competition around them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif I completely disagree. They were not sold by Sony for the prices they are going for now because of time. As the years have gone by, headphone enthusiasts have determined that there has yet to be a dynamic produced that has some of the technical capabilities that the R10 possesses. For this reason, and this reason only, they now sell for what the market dictates. Yes rarity plays a small role in the adjustment of their price, however it is their technical ability that gets people to open up their wallets. It's not the wood or ear pads I can tell you that.

Are you blind? Maybe it is because you have not been here for long. The prices have not increased because all of a sudden we realize how good they are. We knew this the year they were released, when highly respected members came here and did reviews and comparisons.


Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Probably not, but they would definitely still fork over $4000-5000 for them.

I guarantee that they wouldn't and history shows this to be true. The price of these headphones has gone up as they have become harder and harder to find. If there were hundreds of pairs available sellers couldn't sell them for $4000. The only reason they have gone up like they have is because of their availability, so saying that people would pay $4000 for them if they were readily available is nonsense.

You can see the same progression with other discontinued cans. Around a year ago, paying $1800 for an HP1 sounded absurb. Now that they are increasingly hard to find, the prices have risen to $1500 and up and will continue to do so as they become more and more rare.

It isn't that people are gradually starting to appreciate their technical ability. Their technical ability has not changed over the years that they have been available. It is that they are gradually becoming harder and harder to find.


Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif And vice versa. If you think that people only pay that much for these cans because of their rarity, which you clearly insinuated above, then you are truly blind to rationale. People buy this headphone at the price they do because they have to? No they don't. They can clearly say no thank you and move on to something else. There isn't anyone twisting arms here forcing people to part ways with $6k for the R10. They do so because of the reputation the headphone has earned for its technical ability...and partly because of their unavailability.

You are the only person who cannot seem to admit that the lack of supply and increase of demand has contributed to their price. It is simple business economics that you are blind too.

Of course people that buy the R10 are aiming for a technically superior headphone. That is why the buy it. The reason they pay the price they do, is because of it is a rarity.

 

[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please don't twist my words. I stated that the supply and demand is what contributed to their price. This is FACT. Their technical performance has not changed over the years. Can you guess what has? Their availability and the competition around them.

I'm not twisting anything. I quoted you word for word, literally a copy and paste.

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you blind? Maybe it is because you have not been here for long. The prices have not increased because all of a sudden we realize how good they are. We knew this the year they were released, when highly respected members came here and did reviews and comparisons. I guarantee that they wouldn't and history shows this to be true. The price of these headphones has gone up as they have become harder and harder to find. If there were hundreds of pairs available sellers couldn't sell them for $4000. The only reason they have gone up like they have is because of their availability, so saying that people would pay $4000 for them if they were readily available is nonsense.

History actually disagrees with you. When it was announced that these were being discontinued and Amazon had them on sale for ~$4000, along with Audio Advancements and the other various places selling them for $4-4.5k, they were bought up like hot cakes. Why is that exactly?

I may not have been around as long as you but I certainly know how to use the search function.

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are the only person who cannot seem to admit that the lack of supply and increase of demand has contributed to their price. It is simple business economics that you are blind too. Of course people that buy the R10 are aiming for a technically superior headphone. That is why the buy it. The reason they pay the price they do, is because of it is a rarity.

Did you not see the wink and where I said their market price was partly due to their rarity? I clearly admitted that this was part of the equation.

I just think it's painfully obvious that their technical ability is a far greater determining factor on their price than their rarity, and we will just continue to agree to disagree on that point.