Any current Stax O2 owners heard the Audeze LCD-2?
Jul 8, 2010 at 7:15 AM Post #76 of 105


Quote:
If Kevin is reading this... I'm pretty sure he still has a copy of the original advert for the t2+omega combo.
I think 20k is pretty close to the truth for memory.
 
 



What i have is the audio advisor catalog from 1994 which lists the Omegas plus the T2 for a total  price of $6500.
When the catalog came in the mail i called on the phone and tried to buy one. Stax had gone out of business
(the first time) between the time the catalog was sent for printing, and it showed up at my home.  It was definitely
a bargain for $6500. Accounting for inflation, it would be about $13k, which is still too cheap to make money on it.
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 8:01 AM Post #77 of 105

About standing waves - well, I wouldn't make many claims, as I didn't do the measurements, iirc, Mike Rehorst made them, but I don't recall well. It was stated that there are no waves on the membrane at all, it acts as a rigid, stiff flat surface and doesn't bend at all, except at the edges. Like loudspeaker's diffusor at low frequency and diffusor's suspension.

 
I guess you meant membrane/diaphragm instead of «diffusor». It would be interesting to see the measuring results your're mentioning. It takes laser interferometry for that purpose. (I couldn't found corresponding data on the net.) In the end the cause for the inaccuracies doesn't really matter when it comes to judge accuracy.

 
For the frontal grid - I do not argue the effect, it's there. I just think that it is caused primaily by secondary emission and not reflections. The closer the grid is to the emitting surface and the bigger the open area, the less reflections in audio band are there.
 
Not really. Theoretically they're reduced to the ultrasonic content, though, but I'm not sure if that's really the case – considering a multiple-reflections scenario. Moreover there's the compression-chamber effect (accelerated air molecules) with its considerable audible effect. And finally we're not just talking of reflections between the stators or between stator(s) and membrane, but also between the stator(s) and the ear/head skin, plus reflections on the stator surface itself (remember the speaker-baffle example).

 
On Omega2's stators - there would be reflections, but highs would attenuate well, so only lows go from edges to center hole. But I too see it as not the best approach. Fostex used a felt ring in their T50v1 for that purpose.  
There: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/146204-asymmetric-construction-induced-distortion-electrostatic-speakers.html (sorry, I'm not on normal browser now and can't use forum tools.) There are some measurements of an ESL system. Problem is, I don't really know what was measured, most probably - non-enclosed 'Wachara' ESL headphone drivers, that guy has measured some onter aspects of those before.
 
Unfortunately you have to be registered to see the graphs. But from the text I take it that it's primarily about asymmetric stator geometry and asymmetric damping, so not directly related to our topic. As to the reflections within the closed part of the Omega stators, since they're damped only by air, there will be a massive amount of them, thus still a considerable amount of them will mix to the original signal through the center holes. They may be inconspicuous like some second-order harmonic distortion, though, but I'm sure their absence would make a clear audible difference.  


 
I haven't finished reading this thread as I had to pause to write upon reading some of the comments. As I've said before, the O2's (and the Lambda Pros) are technically the best phones of the lot (potentially the Sennheiser es offerings to though I've not heard them). The HD800's are in a league below (and according to my perfect pitch ears, by a significant distance) the O2's. The only dynamic phone that touches them of what I've heard are the K1000's but that's a different topic.

 
I don't dispute that you hear what you hear. But it's something else to deduce a universally valid truth from your individual perception.
 
 
I'll finish by saying the degree to which some members here beat around the bush for fear of hurting feelings is bothersome. If you have an opinion state it so we can make some progress. Mine is, the O2's and every other electrostatic I've heard are significantly, not just slightly, better than any dynamic headphone I've heard with the exception of the K1000's. Lastly, I'm not trying to brag about my musical experience, I'm simply frustrated when people make false claims do to lack of critical faculty or emotional attachment to inanimate objects (myself included).
 
I have no interest in graphs and charts and flawed, half confused justifications. At the end of the day I'm far more trusting in the gifts that most of us are fortunate enough to have -- in this context, a set of ears and the capacity to observe and formulate oppinions. I wish some others were too.

You know, your subjective perception is no valid basis for the postulation of a technical superiority. In this case it's the basis for the rejection of objective data which seem to prove you wrong, though.
 
I may be a lone fighter in this thread, but I'm not alone with my now preference for the sonic presentation of dynamic headphones. You would have to declare all those people misguided, equipped with a bad hearing and unable to listen critically. While people who share your preferences are of course fine.
 
Can you show me some well-founded evidence for the technical superiority of your favorite headphones?
.
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 8:01 AM Post #78 of 105
Kevin, can you share some of the KGSSHV details?  What I really want to know is... can the gain be dropped... how did you put it... without something catastrophic like disconnecting the source causing the something something to fry?
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 8:24 AM Post #79 of 105
why would you want to drop the gain?  There are input resistors to prevent anything
from happening should the input be removed. Plus the volume knob.
 
Currently trying to source a box that is 13 x 13 x 3 (or more) with heatsinks on both sides.
(or something easy to make that results in the same thing)
 
Otherwise i have to do more chassis, and i'm not willing to do that at  the moment.
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 8:30 AM Post #80 of 105
We had this conversation back in 06.  Basically on my KGSS with my source, even ran single ended... I can't go beyond the second step on the DACT.  Its not a huge deal since I had someone make me single ended -14dB attenuators but if I could I'd rather run balanced without them... so a drop in gain.  But back in 06 you had said that dropping the gain on KGSS wasn't really doable without smoke.
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 9:12 AM Post #81 of 105
The amp is designed for 1 volt peak to peak input at max volume delivers maximum
output voltage before clipping.  The feedback and such are designed as a system
and decreasing the loop gain would require compensation.  Much easier to
significantly attenuate the input signal in cases like this. Signal to noise ratio is
high enough that you would never notice.
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 11:15 AM Post #82 of 105
Bahaha seems my memory ain't so good   =P
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 11:39 AM Post #83 of 105
No need to mess with the gain, just stop using those damn stepped attenuators and use some of the quality 4-gang pots available, TKD, P&G and Alps RK50.  Another option would be to use fixed voltage dividers on the input but the problem here is really the source as the output is simply too hot.
 
I for one quite like the 717 amp and it's value is hard to deny.  It's rather similar in terms of design to the KGSS but lacks the regulated PSU plus Stax decided to make it not sound neutral so it has some clear coloration.  It's a pleasant effect though but the amp simply isn't powerful enough to really show what the SR-007 can do.  It is how ever just about as expensive an amp as Stax can build and expect to sell.  They have built the T2 (plus what ever other amp designs they have at hand) so they know full well how the headphones scale with better amplification.  This change isn't only limited to the SR-007 though as something like the SR-Sigma is utterly transformed on the Blue Hawaii, ditto for the HE-60.  
 
Now why this is should be made a bit clearer.  As we all know, ESP's make sound by swinging AC voltages on two stators on either side of a DC biased membrane.  Now given just how week the electrostatic forces are we need a lot of voltage to do which which in it self isn't really a problem.  The issue is the electrostatic driver being basically a capacitor and thus its impedance varying greatly with frequency.  This means we need to supply current as the impedance drops (Ohm's law) to make sure the voltage doesn't sag and that makes life a bit harder.  On top of this we have the most revealing transducers money can buy so the normal "oh that will do just fine" attitude that is so common in audio just won't work for us.  We need very fast amps with constant current sources and naturally all driven in Class A.  We need rock stable power supplies that are large enough to work well in speaker amps but are fully regulated and current limited. 
 
Now the ultimate expression of this is the T2DIY.  Those that listened to it at CJ know there is no equal and know just how hot that beast runs. 
redface.gif
  A more sane aproach are any of the Blue Hawaii versions which come very close but are also a lot cheaper to make.  Believe it or not but the BHSE is a bargain by any definition.  The KGSS isn't as powerful (hence the KGSSHV design) but it is a lovely amp and drives the SR-007 very well but lacks the last word in control. 
 
Quote:
Do you think Stax will ever change their design?

 

 
Change it as in make it not sensitive to a sealed baffle?  Can't be done with a real dipole driver as if the front and back signals mix you have issues.  That's why closed ESP's are so hard to make and you always have to result to some clever tricks such as the 4070's bass reflex system, the Koss trick of feeding the back stators with a diminished signal or simply try to diffuse the reflections as Stax did with the SR-50. 
 
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 12:29 PM Post #84 of 105


Quote:
Another option would be to use fixed voltage dividers on the input but the problem here is really the source as the output is simply too hot.
 

 
 
The source output is 1.4V but the REAL problem is I like low level listening.  Loud listening for me is ~70dB, most days I listen at 50dB.  So even on a pot unless its a great one I'd be down low on the sweep... and I prefer the fixed resistor sound or lack thereof.
 
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 2:39 PM Post #86 of 105





Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif




I have a simple question to all Stax owners. Is there a reasonably priced electrostatic energizer/amp the has a good reputation and performs well, for those that want to pair it with the 007MKII? Solid State preferred since tubes are a PITA, as you have to wait for them to warm up, and you also have to change out the tubes.






at this very moment your only bet will be Headamp KGSS. The HV version still in the horizon to say the least. Even for KGSS I would say it would be at least few months wait considering Justin is up to his neck on fulfilling the order for his Pico slim. Other than that is WES. McAllister is another choice but I have no idea how it fare since its quite rare and its tube


 


To add, before BH comes into picture, KGSS is considered the best amp for stats. So time will tell into the future whether another amp will come and beat Bhse
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 6:15 PM Post #87 of 105


Quote:
 
 
The source output is 1.4V but the REAL problem is I like low level listening.  Loud listening for me is ~70dB, most days I listen at 50dB.  So even on a pot unless its a great one I'd be down low on the sweep... and I prefer the fixed resistor sound or lack thereof.
 


Yikes, that's whisper quiet. 
eek.gif
  A custom stepper would be the best bet for you then with an altered curve and more steps. 

 
Quote:
at this very moment your only bet will be Headamp KGSS. The HV version still in the horizon to say the least. Even for KGSS I would say it would be at least few months wait considering Justin is up to his neck on fulfilling the order for his Pico slim. Other than that is WES. McAllister is another choice but I have no idea how it fare since its quite rare and its tube
 
To add, before BH comes into picture, KGSS is considered the best amp for stats. So time will tell into the future whether another amp will come and beat KGSS.

 
McAllister isn't an option unless you want to support somebody who makes Mikhail look like a master craftsman and a champion for electrical safety.  I'm sure if you just throw all the parts in a box with some glue, shake it for a while, you could come up with a better layout then any of the McAllister amps. 
 
The BH is basically a KGSS on steroids with tubes thrown in.  Now what has been the trouble in the past is getting transistors which can handle 1000V+ and fit the criteria.  They are available now hence the KGSSHV but if somebody would put out a matched set of NPN/PNP units which could handle 1500V+ then we could do something truly great...
 
 
Jul 8, 2010 at 10:27 PM Post #88 of 105


 
 

 
Order a McAlister if you want - this is what my $2k got me - luckily I actually got $1500 back.
 
My work is done here.
 
 
Quote:
Other than that is WES. McAllister is another choice but I have no idea how it fare since its quite rare and its tube
 

 
Jul 8, 2010 at 10:39 PM Post #89 of 105


Quote:
 
I for one quite like the 717 amp and it's value is hard to deny.  It's rather similar in terms of design to the KGSS but lacks the regulated PSU plus Stax decided to make it not sound neutral so it has some clear coloration.  It's a pleasant effect though but the amp simply isn't powerful enough to really show what the SR-007 can do.

I listened to the 007MKII with the 717 and that was my first experience with electrostat setups. I loved it very much and has converted me. So exactly how does the 717 color the sound? Too warm? Too dark? Not articulate enough? And just how much better than the 717 is the KGSS or BHSE? And I don't mean in audiophile hyperbole terms, but objective, logical, and fair terms.
 
 

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