[milezone]

I haven't finished reading this thread as I had to pause to write upon reading some of the comments. As I've said before, the O2's (and the Lambda Pros) are technically the best phones of the lot (potentially the Sennheiser es offerings to though I've not heard them). The HD800's are in a league below (and according to my perfect pitch ears, by a significant distance) the O2's.  The only dynamic phone that touches them of what I've heard are the K1000's but that's a different topic. 
 
I'll finish by saying the degree to which some members here beat around the bush for fear of hurting feelings is bothersome. If you have an opinion state it so we can make some progress. Mine is, the O2's and every other electrostatic I've heard are significantly, not just slightly, better than any dynamic headphone I've heard with the exception of the K1000's. Lastly, I'm not trying to brag about my musical experience, I'm simply frustrated when people make false claims do to lack of critical faculty or emotional attachment to inanimate objects (myself included).
 
I have no interest in graphs and charts and flawed, half confused justifications. At the end of the day I'm far more trusting in the gifts that most of us are fortunate enough to have -- in this context, a set of ears and the capacity to observe and formulate oppinions. I wish some others were too.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

the O2's and every other electrostatic I've heard are significantly, not just slightly, better than any dynamic headphone I've heard with the exception of the K1000's.

Just out of curiosity, have you had a chance to listen to the LCD2 or other ortho headphones? What did you think of them compared to the O2's? I've been in love with the 007MKII ever since I heard it not long ago and plan to buy one, but I'm hearing so much about the LCD2 and how they just might be the best currently on the market. The objective opinions I've read from those who have heard both seems to think they're equally amazing, but in different ways. The LCD2 being more exciting and visceral, while still quite neutral, while the O2's being darker and seductive, like rich dark beer or port wine.

 

[milezone]

I haven't heard the LCD2's yet. I really would like to try them. Based on research/partial knowledge of its (and the O2's) physical properties, your analogy is maybe partially accurate (though I cant say for sure as I haven't heard the LCD2's) but is perhaps a bit too idealistic and simplistic. I do find the O2's dark and seductive. From what I've read, it seems the LCD2's may even be a bit darker and potentially have more bass emphasis. My only qualm with the the O2 at the moment is their slightly emphasized bass. In this context I prefer the Lambda Pros and K1000's as they tend closer towards neutrality. It seems the MKII addresses this issue but at cost of degraded bass. Some have reported that Stax has released a MKII.5 which fixes the issue to a degree (perhaps similar to blue tak, driver angle mod?).
 
I think there's potential for confusion when using the words dark and seductive to describe the O2's. While the MKi's emphasize bass to an extent, they are tremendously clear (just as clear as the more neutral lambda pros). Seductive for sure. I would guesstimate (key word) the LCD2's arent as clear, effortless, detailed, etc. I'm sure they're naturally more visceral (in that they push more air into one's ear drum). I'm also sure the O2's can match the dynamism of any headphone I've heard when powered with an energizer. I bet the LCD2's are equally or more seductive. If so they would be bordering or syrup to my ears. You get the idea. I'll stop there as I don't know and don't want to hurt any feelings. I'm sure those who have heard both can confirm.
 
--as for the visceral arguement, I haven't made up my mind as to whether it's a relevant observation or just a mental trick. Part of me (a larger one) thinks the whole dynamic=emotional argument is nonsense... in fact it is.

 

[Asr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milezone /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'll finish by saying the degree to which some members here beat around the bush for fear of hurting feelings is bothersome. If you have an opinion state it so we can make some progress.

Hear hear!

 
I don't have much to add to this thread but will state my opinion anyway.
 
The Stax OII demands power and only a few amps can deliver it. Anyone who hasn't heard the OII on one of these powerful amps really has nothing useful to contribute to the discussion. Likewise, the LCD-2 also has its own electrical demands and anyone who hasn't heard the LCD-2 on an optimal amp for it has nothing useful to contribute either. Given the different requirements of each headphone, it'd be difficult at best to stage a comparison, and even then, there will be only one conclusive answer for just one person: the person who did the comparison, no one else.
 
My advice is to not worry about whether or not the Stax OII is "better" than the LCD-2 because there are too many variables and complications between the two headphones, and "better" is extremely subjective, and even more vague. "Better" is a terrible word to use when you think about it logically, which few people on this site do, and I for one roll my eyes every time I see someone claim something is "better" than another. There are so many facets to what can possibly constitute "better" and to use only that word is vastly incomplete - what does "better" even mean when we're talking about perception of sound?
 
It's only headphones folks, and one only needs money to acquire them, it's not like these are life or death situations. People need to collectively quit overthinking buying decisions and just do something or be happy with something. If you like a headphone, great, then stick with that one and just buy more music. If you're curious about another headphone, save up some money and just buy it, and if you don't want to keep it for one reason or another, then sell it. It's not rocket science.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

The Stax OII demands power and only a few amps can deliver it. Anyone who hasn't heard the OII on one of these powerful amps really has nothing useful to contribute to the discussion.

So my listening session of the 007MKII with the SR717 is invalid because the 717 isn't considered one of the elitist amps by the head-fi crowd? And what if we lived in a world where the small boutique shops didn't make ridiculously expensive amps for the O2's? Would the flagship amps Stax paired with the flagship headphones then be considered valid?
 
I just can't understand this mentality. I mean, let's say there are small boutique shops making really expensive aftermarket engines for whatever cars on the market. Do these aftermarket engines all of a sudden make the original engines that are installed in the cars somehow invalid, underpowered, or illegitimate somehow? I mean, we can all play this game until the cows come home--small boutique shops making extremely expensive aftermarket parts or components for everything in our household, and now nothing we own is legitimate or working properly, because we now must use the absolute premium boutique versions or else everything we own is somehow broken or illegitimate.
 
Seriously. Are the Stax flagship amps so bad that people must virtually spit on them and consider them some kind of a joke? Are all of our setups irrelevant and to be sneered at unless we buy amps that cost more than quality used cars? Where does this stop? And if tomorrow someone designs a $20,000 amp? What happens then? The Blue Hawaii would then be considered not good enough? I really want to know how all this works because I really don't understand it, and I'm going to be buying a 007MKII in a couple of months.

 

[jjinh]

Quote:

So my listening session of the 007MKII with the SR717 is invalid because the 717 isn't considered one of the elitist amps by the head-fi crowd? And what if we lived in a world where the small boutique shops didn't make ridiculously expensive amps for the O2's? Would the flagship amps Stax paired with the flagship headphones then be considered valid?
 
I just can't understand this mentality. I mean, let's say there are small boutique shops making really expensive aftermarket engines for whatever cars on the market. Do these aftermarket engines all of a sudden make the original engines that are installed in the cars somehow invalid, underpowered, or illegitimate somehow? I mean, we can all play this game until the cows come home--small boutique shops making extremely expensive aftermarket parts or components for everything in our household, and now nothing we own is legitimate or working properly, because we now must use the absolute premium boutique versions or else everything we own is somehow broken or illegitimate.
 
Seriously. Are the Stax flagship amps so bad that people must virtually spit on them and consider them some kind of a joke? Are all of our setups irrelevant and to be sneered at unless we buy amps that cost more than quality used cars? Where does this stop? And if tomorrow someone designs a $20,000 amp? What happens then? The Blue Hawaii would then be considered not good enough? I really want to know how all this works because I really don't understand it, and I'm going to be buying a 007MKII in a couple of months.

 
From what I understand Stax builds their amps to a budget.
 
And if we didnt have the 'boutiques' there'd still be diy. Anyway where I live the importing the KGSS from headamp would actually cost significantly less than buying a SRM-007t or SRM-727 brand new.
 
Talking about $20000 for an amp, didnt the Stax SRM-T2 cost nearly $10000 new? I dont think they made much money off them either, hence bankruptcy.
 

 

[n3rdling]

Lunatique, I've lived with the Stax T1/T1S/717 and a DIY exstata/Blue Hawaii while having the O2mk1.  From my time with the amps, I would say the following:
The T1/T1S/exstata didn't power the O2 very well.  The bass wasn't well controlled and a bit flabby.  The sound was dark.  The combo was better than most headphone setups but didn't really do justice to the O2.
The 717 was awesome for the price (got it with the O2 for about 2k), easily one of the best headphone setups I've heard, a great option for those on a "budget".  The bass was better controlled for sure and the sound was still slightly dark, though not as much as with the prior mentioned amps.
The Blue Hawaii is just killer with the O2.  The bass is so well controlled now and the soundstage seems a little bigger.  The O2 sounds neutral to my ears from this amp.  Probably the best rig I've heard but I want more time with it.
 
I agree with you that things on this website get blown way out of proportion (especially DAC and amp performance), but the O2 is probably the one headphone that I'd say changes a very noticeable amount with amplification in particular.  I don't really try to exaggerate, which is why my impressions of the amps above is so brief - those are pretty much the differences I've heard.

 

[Currawong]

Edit: See my next post. My iPhone decided to post this one before I'd completed it.

 

[nattonrice]

If Kevin is reading this... I'm pretty sure he still has a copy of the original advert for the t2+omega combo.
I think 20k is pretty close to the truth for memory.
However as Spritzer said, if the new t2 we now have was sold as a commercial product you could expect to pay close to that for just the amp.

 
Quote:

Talking about $20000 for an amp, didnt the Stax SRM-T2 cost nearly $10000 new? I dont think they made much money off them either, hence bankruptcy.  

 

[Currawong]

Quick thoughts: The O2s are definitely the most detailed headphones I've listened with, bar none. This even considering that the best I've heard them with was out of a 717 and considering they don't have a bright treble trying to fake it. I'm looking forward to building a KGSSHV and comparing the O2s to the LCD-2s eventually.



As for measurements, unless we know how they were done exactly, we can't make arbitrary statements about their validity because it suits our arguments to do so. Because something is related to science doesn't mean that you can conclude anything you like from it, as people are apt to do on here.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

The 717 was awesome for the price (got it with the O2 for about 2k), easily one of the best headphone setups I've heard, a great option for those on a "budget".  The bass was better controlled for sure and the sound was still slightly dark, though not as much as with the prior mentioned amps.
The Blue Hawaii is just killer with the O2.  The bass is so well controlled now and the soundstage seems a little bigger.  The O2 sounds neutral to my ears from this amp.  Probably the best rig I've heard but I want more time with it.
 
I agree with you that things on this website get blown way out of proportion (especially DAC and amp performance), but the O2 is probably the one headphone that I'd say changes a very noticeable amount with amplification in particular.  I don't really try to exaggerate, which is why my impressions of the amps above is so brief - those are pretty much the differences I've heard.

When you say bass control, do you mean it's more articulate, less resonant, punchier, cleaner...etc? Or are we talking about less bass weight in general? I personally didn't find the 007MKII to be bass-heavy as some feels--I like authoritative and substantial bass (but without blatant bloat like some headphones, such as the Westone 3). For me D7000 and M50 and ES-10's bass is really satisfying.

Based on your experience, do you feel the Blue Hawaii's improve on the bass and soundstage justifies the $2K+ additional price tag? I know that when we play in the high-end segment of the market, it's all about diminishing returns, but really, how much better is the Blue Hawaii compared to the 717? Is it really $2K+ better?

 

[El_Doug]

You admit that there are insane diminishing returns, and yet expect someone to be able to quantify the improvement level in dollars?  It all comes down to 1) taste in the sound, and 2) how much $2000 means relatively to each user. 
 
What I can say is:  the bass on the BHSE is just what he said: controlled.  With the BHSE there is no additional bass quantity over the other amps (though there is quite a bit more than the energizers offer), but the bass is far tighter, faster, and a lot less muddy.  the edges of all the bass notes are nearly as well defined as those of the midrange!  this is really something that has to be experienced, and I would certainly rate it as worth the money. 
 
Quote:

I know that when we play in the high-end segment of the market, it's all about diminishing returns, but really, how much better is the Blue Hawaii compared to the 717? Is it really $2K+ better?

 

[Solude]

At the time I pulled the trigger the 717 and KGSS were the same price but not performance.  And yes they mean bass control, tightness, drive. 
 
Now whats a KGSSHV?  Because I'm not seeing it on HeadAmp.

 

[Currawong]

The KGSSHV is the new version of the KGSS with Higher Voltage. In other words, same thing, bigger hammer, more fun. More technically, it's the same circuit with higher voltage parts and a power supply based on the one Kevin Gilmore designed for his T2. It should, I hope, be something even an idiot like me can build (where I doubt I could say the same about the Blue Hawaii, which would surely see me burning down my apartment).

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

You admit that there are insane diminishing returns, and yet expect someone to be able to quantify the improvement level in dollars?  It all comes down to 1) taste in the sound, and 2) how much $2000 means relatively to each user. 
 
What I can say is:  the bass on the BHSE is just what he said: controlled.  With the BHSE there is no additional bass quantity over the other amps (though there is quite a bit more than the energizers offer), but the bass is far tighter, faster, and a lot less muddy.  the edges of all the bass notes are nearly as well defined as those of the midrange!  this is really something that has to be experienced, and I would certainly rate it as worth the money. 
 

 

OK, got it. So this is basically the "no holds barred" rig. The ultimate. The One.
 
But what about for people who don't like to deal with tubes, feeling they are too much of a pain in the ass? Does the KGSS come close to the Blue Hawaii? How would the available amps to ranked?
 
1) BH
2) KGSS
3) 717
 
and so on?