AMP A / B COMPARISONS
Mar 3, 2011 at 12:56 PM Post #241 of 500
great post luna. i think i have pretty much reached the level where after (maybe ive even passed it by a few hundred) wher im at now, the returns just arent worth it.  i for one, spent more than i ever watned to but its comforting to know that if i ever need the money, i can resell what i bought for minimal loss.  even b4 i read your post, i was thinking about selling some stuff solely based on the fact that.... i dont need it and the gain isnt worth the hundreds invested. 
i really shouldve stopped at my hd650 + little dot MKII + musiland 02. but hey... i should learn from my mistakes and i hope my view on this hobby is in fact changing. it isnt my life, but ive been spending like it has been.
thank you op and others.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 1:46 PM Post #242 of 500
Excellent post Lunatique. I feel the same way... Diminishing returns is a serious topic here on Head-Fi that is never addressed. 
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 2:05 PM Post #243 of 500
Actually, I think diminishing returns is discussed fairly frequently.  There is no doubt that it exists.  Very cheap amps and DACs can provide what for most people is all the musical enjoyment they could ever want or need.
 
But for some people, who are into very small nuances in music, spending more on equipment that can help bring out that nuance is well worth the pursuit, in terms of time and money. 
 
I have far, far more money invested in actual MUSIC than I ever will in equipment to play it with.  Searching out higher levels of performance to try to maximize my enjoyment of the investment I have made in the music I love seems perfectly rational to me.
 
That said, I find threads like this incredibly valuable, because they present a point of view, well presented.  I think people who make off handed comments trying to claim that what's presented in this thread isn't useful are either missing the point, or feel somehow oddly threatened.  I think threads like this are very valuable because I believe that the wider range of impressions and opinions that are available for people to read, the better off people are in trying to chart their own path to musical enjoyment, based on what their priorities and resources are.
 
Happy listening to all.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 2:13 PM Post #244 of 500
Thanks for the comparisons milosz and also Lunatique for the 'enlightenment'. I am new to this hobby and tend to get in over my head in whatever I am interested at the time and you've both shown me its not really worth it. Right now I am using the uDAC2>Matrix M-stage>HD 800 and am quite pleased when I look back and compare it to what I had before. I'm really looking forward to a DAC shootout as that's the last thing I'm willing to spend on at this point... probably mostly to NwAvGuy's detailed review.
 
Bookmarked your new site as well milosz. Enjoy the music!
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 3:20 PM Post #245 of 500
I'm surprised how few gear snobs I've met on these forums. To the contrary, the head-fiers with the most extensive and expensive audio-equipment collections are some of the most prolific and generous contributors. Many take the time to review low-cost gear and give it a fair comparison to their high-end stuff. To them, I tip my hat. I'd never know what I'm missing or not missing otherwise.


 
Mar 3, 2011 at 3:35 PM Post #246 of 500
Lunatique
 
I understand your position of "enough is enough" concerning buying gear and even more expensive gear and not paying enough attention to the real problem... musical enjoyment. But, perhaps, do you think it's worthwhile to seek out different gear, not necessarily better gear, but gear that offers different presentations to music? I don't want to use the term "color" or whatever else someone might apply to that, but it seems to me it's worthwhile to experiment with gear that can provide a preferred, tailored response to that particular listener.
 
Or is this what you were referring to in EQ'ing your music?
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 7:08 PM Post #247 of 500

 
Quote:
Actually, I think diminishing returns is discussed fairly frequently.  There is no doubt that it exists.  Very cheap amps and DACs can provide what for most people is all the musical enjoyment they could ever want or need.
 
But for some people, who are into very small nuances in music, spending more on equipment that can help bring out that nuance is well worth the pursuit, in terms of time and money. 
 
I have far, far more money invested in actual MUSIC than I ever will in equipment to play it with.  Searching out higher levels of performance to try to maximize my enjoyment of the investment I have made in the music I love seems perfectly rational to me.
 
That said, I find threads like this incredibly valuable, because they present a point of view, well presented.  I think people who make off handed comments trying to claim that what's presented in this thread isn't useful are either missing the point, or feel somehow oddly threatened.  I think threads like this are very valuable because I believe that the wider range of impressions and opinions that are available for people to read, the better off people are in trying to chart their own path to musical enjoyment, based on what their priorities and resources are.
 
Happy listening to all.

x2.
 
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 8:13 PM Post #248 of 500
The law of diminishing returns is certainly getting stronger every year.  I was just musing how a DAC/amp I just received, worth about 1/10th of my main rig, gives me something like 90% of the satisfaction with the LCD-2s.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 9:45 PM Post #249 of 500
I was just musing how a DAC/amp I just received, worth about 1/10th of my main rig, gives me something like 90% of the satisfaction with the LCD-2s.


And which DAC/amp, pray tell, is that? :)
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 11:45 PM Post #250 of 500


Quote:
Lunatique
 
I understand your position of "enough is enough" concerning buying gear and even more expensive gear and not paying enough attention to the real problem... musical enjoyment. But, perhaps, do you think it's worthwhile to seek out different gear, not necessarily better gear, but gear that offers different presentations to music? I don't want to use the term "color" or whatever else someone might apply to that, but it seems to me it's worthwhile to experiment with gear that can provide a preferred, tailored response to that particular listener.
 
Or is this what you were referring to in EQ'ing your music?

EQ'ing can definitely totally change the sonic characteristic of any piece of gear. For example, the D7000 grated on my nerves without EQ, but with my custom EQ setting, it turned into a very satisfying and beautiful sounding pair of headphones. Obviously EQ only address the frequency response, and there are other aspects like stereo imaging, soundstage, transients, texture...etc, but when people try to get different "presentation" of the music through different amps and cables, just how much of a difference are they really hearing, and how much money did they spend to attain that subtle difference? Whether the amount of money spent vs. the amount of differences heard is worth it depends on how rich you are and how important these subtle differences are in the grand scheme of your life. When Skylab said that he's spent far more money on actual music than gear, I think that's the right attitude, because in the end it's about the music, not the gear (though he's obviously well-off enough that he could buy the kind of high-end gear that will make most people's eyes bug out). 
 
Personally, I'm very pragmatic about these things. If what I'm hearing when comparing gears is merely "different" and not necessarily "better," than I will be totally honest with myself about whether that difference is worth the money spent. Because I'm a composer/musician, I listen to music differently from those who aren't, and it's not like swapping out an amp or cable will suddenly change the orchestration/arrangement of a piece of music, or alter the performance and recording so much that it's now totally new and refreshing. Amps, cables, and sources do not make that kind of drastic changes to the music (unless we're comparing really abysmal crap to really excellent ones, but that's not what people do--people do incremental upgrades, which means very subtle and minor changes), but headphones do, and so does EQ'ing.
 
Take any epic orchestral cue from an action film or any rocking tune with distorted electric guitars and listen to them on headphones with recessed mids (D7000 for example), and then on headphones with full and lush mids (HD650 or M50 for example), and it almost sounds like the orchestration/arrangement's been altered in terms of what dynamics the brass, strings, and guitars are playing in relation to the rest of the orchestra/band, including changing instruments' distance depending on what frequencies are altered. EQ'ing does the same thing. If you add to the signal chain something like Isone Pro, your playground space for tweaking the headphones you already have becomes even more multi-dimensional and interesting, yet you have spent very little money. A high quality free EQ and a low cost but very high quality room sim + crossfeed like Isone Pro can already add so much fun and joy to one single headphone, why spend hundreds and thousands of dollars seeking something "fresh" and "different"? 
 
I sort of think of it like this--let's take one of your favorite movies of all time--one that you have watched multiple times before. Now, we sit down and watch it in my living room. It's got a 50" plasma screen and a pretty decent surround sound system. Now, we go watch it in a different living room, which has a 45" LCD screen and a slightly better surround sound system. Now, think about the movie that you love--it's character development, the plot structure, the emotional and intellectual resonance it evokes in you, the scenes that really make you feel that cinematic magic. Does the differences between these two living room setups significantly alter your feelings and experience while watching this movie in the grand scheme of things? When you are immersed in the dramatic scenes in the movie, are you going to care that you are watching it on a 45" or 50" screen? Are you going to notice that one surround system is slightly more filled out in the lower-mids than the other? I seriously doubt it because when you are in the middle of the cinematic magic, the world simply disappears and you are living in that alternate universe along with the characters.
 
Now, take that analogy and use it on music. When the differences between amps or cables or sources are so minor and subtle, as soon as you stop doing vigorous A/B comparisons and just sit back and get lost in the music, you are then just enjoying your love for music. I think it's only when you are not doing A/B comparisons, but still feeling unsatisfied with what you are hearing (meaning you can pinpoint exactly what the problem is, such as the sub-bass not being extended enough, or the mids are too recessed, or the brightness is too harsh)--that is when you take action and try to remedy those issues you are so acutely aware of. But the problem with many people I see is that they often start out a post with "I'm really happy with what I have, but....." Why the "but" at all? If you are already happy with what you have, then just enjoy the music. Don't you have other things in life you could spend money on? Movies, books, games, and music you love? A present for a loved one? Dental bill? 
 
My own journey to find audio nirvana was detailed in this post:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/541479/where-did-you-start/30#post_7304612
 
In it, I explained how I went from a little kid listening to crappy earbuds and boomboxes, to where I am today, with a studio built right into my home. You'll see that I always spent money on what really counts, and never on trivial stuff that made very little difference in the grand scheme of things. If I had to concentrate hard or do vigorous A/B comparisons to hear the subtle differences, then it's not enough of a difference to justify my hard-earned money. 
 

 
 
 
Mar 4, 2011 at 6:38 AM Post #251 of 500


Quote:
Actually, I think diminishing returns is discussed fairly frequently.  There is no doubt that it exists.  Very cheap amps and DACs can provide what for most people is all the musical enjoyment they could ever want or need.
 
But for some people, who are into very small nuances in music, spending more on equipment that can help bring out that nuance is well worth the pursuit, in terms of time and money. 
 
I have far, far more money invested in actual MUSIC than I ever will in equipment to play it with.  Searching out higher levels of performance to try to maximize my enjoyment of the investment I have made in the music I love seems perfectly rational to me.
 
That said, I find threads like this incredibly valuable, because they present a point of view, well presented.  I think people who make off handed comments trying to claim that what's presented in this thread isn't useful are either missing the point, or feel somehow oddly threatened.  I think threads like this are very valuable because I believe that the wider range of impressions and opinions that are available for people to read, the better off people are in trying to chart their own path to musical enjoyment, based on what their priorities and resources are.
 
Happy listening to all.



x3 
bigsmile_face.gif

 
Very thoughtful earlier post Lunatique
 
Mar 4, 2011 at 8:48 AM Post #252 of 500
Hey, awesome thoughts Lunatique! Really liked the movie analogy
cool.gif

 
Anyhow, and I guess this is off topic (it is) but the only reason I was asking about different presentations was because I was really happy with my HR Ultra setup and then plugged in my really lowfi Ion turntable and found myself really digging that sound. So then I was off on a quest to find an "analog" sounding source, which I hopefully found in a NOS Dac (we'll have to see as it's on order).
 
Listening to a different source sort of got the hampster wheel turning in my head about what else I might enjoy.... But yes there's no question the real "source" of what this hobby is all about (the music).
 
Mar 4, 2011 at 9:48 AM Post #253 of 500
[size=small]Discussions on diminishing returns happens less often now than many years back. This is certainly something people should keep in mind as they continue their quest for the better sound. It is also true that many cheap amps and DACs, including many used ones, provide great sound quality and musical enjoyment. [/size]
[size=small] [/size]
[size=small]However, OP's non-comparison comparisons fail to provide any real insight and as I have pointed out before, it's worthless. It's one thing to have a genuine comparison between amps and to articulate the difference or similarities between them; it's quite another thing to have a preconceived conclusion and deliberately setup comparisons to reach that conclusion. We can gain some real insight from the former and none from the latter. OP's posts have demonstrated that the conclusion came before the comparison. OP had a strong conviction about amps making very little difference in sound. The non-comparison comparisons were the means by which OP used to direct the reader to the preconceived conclusion. It was clear from the comparisons that there was never any real intention to do honest comparisons; instead, the entire set of comparisons were set up to reach a single result, that is amps makes very little difference. [/size]
[size=small] [/size]
[size=small]It almost borderlines absurdity to think that OP had enough money to afford some of the best headphones and amps in the world, but not enough to spend another $1000 to purchase a source that's more commensurable with OP's system ($1400 can generally get you a very very decent used DAC).[/size]
[size=small] [/size]
[size=small]In light of OP's attempt to redirect traffic from Headfi to OP's own website, I believe this whole non-comparison comparison is merely a marketing stunt designed to drive traffic to OP's own website. I hope people can see through the form and evaluate the substance of OP's posts and really ask yourself these question: why would someone who probably spent upwards of $4,000 on amps and headphones but insist to use an entry level DAC? What is OP's motive if it is not to 1) prove a point or 2) shill for his own website?[/size]
[size=small][/size]
[size=small]P.S. To correct some comments made in prior posts, I never mentioned $400 DAC has bad sound, and I certinaly didn't mention you can't enjoy a $400 DAC. [/size]
 
Quote:
Actually, I think diminishing returns is discussed fairly frequently.  There is no doubt that it exists.  Very cheap amps and DACs can provide what for most people is all the musical enjoyment they could ever want or need.
 
But for some people, who are into very small nuances in music, spending more on equipment that can help bring out that nuance is well worth the pursuit, in terms of time and money. 
 
I have far, far more money invested in actual MUSIC than I ever will in equipment to play it with.  Searching out higher levels of performance to try to maximize my enjoyment of the investment I have made in the music I love seems perfectly rational to me.
 
That said, I find threads like this incredibly valuable, because they present a point of view, well presented.  I think people who make off handed comments trying to claim that what's presented in this thread isn't useful are either missing the point, or feel somehow oddly threatened.  I think threads like this are very valuable because I believe that the wider range of impressions and opinions that are available for people to read, the better off people are in trying to chart their own path to musical enjoyment, based on what their priorities and resources are.
 
Happy listening to all.



 
 
Mar 4, 2011 at 9:56 AM Post #254 of 500
thats a valid point.  although there are diminishing returns, if youre gonna try to power a b22 or something like the HE6, you need the gear to make it work up to its potential.  there are just some amps/headphones that require more. i believe the b22 is about the point where diminishing returns really kick it but you need a source that outputs enough power.  (from what i read)
 
Mar 4, 2011 at 10:04 AM Post #255 of 500

 
Quote:
[size=small]Discussions on diminishing returns happens less often now than many years back. This is certainly something people should keep in mind as they continue their quest for the better sound. It is also true that many cheap amps and DACs, including many used ones, provide great sound quality and musical enjoyment. [/size]
 
[size=small] [/size]
[size=small]However, OP's non-comparison comparisons fail to provide any real insight and as I have pointed out before, it's worthless. It's one thing to have a genuine comparison between amps and to articulate the difference or similarities between them; it's quite another thing to have a preconceived conclusion and deliberately setup comparisons to reach that conclusion. We can gain some real insight from the former and none from the latter. OP's posts have demonstrated that the conclusion came before the comparison. OP had a strong conviction about amps making very little difference in sound. The non-comparison comparisons were the means by which OP used to direct the reader to the preconceived conclusion. It was clear from the comparisons that there was never any real intention to do honest comparisons; instead, the entire set of comparisons were set up to reach a single result, that is amps makes very little difference. [/size]
 
[size=small] [/size]
[size=small]It almost borderlines absurdity to think that OP had enough money to afford some of the best headphones and amps in the world, but not enough to spend another $1000 to purchase a source that's more commensurable with OP's system ($1400 can generally get you a very very decent used DAC).[/size]
 
[size=small] [/size]
[size=small]In light of OP's attempt to redirect traffic from Headfi to OP's own website, I believe this whole non-comparison comparison is merely a marketing stunt designed to drive traffic to OP's own website. I hope people can see through the form and evaluate the substance of OP's posts and really ask yourself these question: why would someone who probably spent upwards of $4,000 on amps and headphones but insist to use an entry level DAC? What is OP's motive if it is not to 1) prove a point or 2) shill for his own website?[/size]
 
 
[size=small]P.S. To correct some comments made in prior posts, I never mentioned $400 DAC has bad sound, and I certinaly didn't mention you can't enjoy a $400 DAC. [/size]
 


 


From the first post
 
"1. I was surprised that I didn't immediately hear incontrovertible differences between these amps. I was expecting a fairly obvious difference in their sounds."
 
which does not back up your claim of a preconceived conclusion. Which makes a nonsense of the rest of your criticisms of the comparisons.
 
 
 
 

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