AMP A / B COMPARISONS
Feb 18, 2011 at 5:22 PM Post #166 of 500
That's funny because the OP notices differences between every amp and you can't tell any difference between a soundcard and an external dac/amp in any way?  I mean actually that would be awesome if I could hear no differences between different devices... would save me a lot of money.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 5:39 PM Post #167 of 500
The OP might, I don't. Nonetheless, he prompted me to properly test, through which I arrived at my own conclusion. 
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Feb 18, 2011 at 5:45 PM Post #168 of 500
That's funny because the OP notices differences between every amp and you can't tell any difference between a soundcard and an external dac/amp in any way?  I mean actually that would be awesome if I could hear no differences between different devices... would save me a lot of money.


The fact that you hear differences does not necessary mean they actually don't sound the same.:evil:
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 5:57 PM Post #169 of 500
Also, differences =/= better.
 
Which is why I consider well driven headphones with different amps that change the sound in subtle ways to be DIFFERENT and not necessarily BETTER.
 
Up to there, it would all be based off personal preference, and not because Amp A is superior to Amp B.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 8:07 PM Post #170 of 500


Quote:
The E9 is cheap enough I could buy two of them with spare adapter/wire bits to make an ad hoc balanced amp...


Save yourself a lot of trouble and just buy a more powerful amp.  
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Feb 18, 2011 at 8:21 PM Post #172 of 500
I never said that different was better or even that they couldn't sound the same to dibster.  I wish that every amp and dac combination sounded exactly the same to me but I suppose that could be pretty damn boring too.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 9:03 PM Post #173 of 500


Quote:
I have an Audio-Gd NFB10-ES now, so I will be repeating some tests with this as a DAC to see if a better DAC indeed does somehow point up differences in amplifiers not audible using the DAC Magic as a source.  My contention is that the amp doesn't know which DAC is being used as a source; if an amp is changing the sound, it will change the sound from a low-fi DAC to exactly the same degree as it changes the sound form an uber-reference  DAC.  The differences between two amps, if such differences are real, should be audible no matter what the source used, as long as sources are fairly low noise and wideband - as any DAC would be.  
 
I haven't compared the sound of the NFB-10ES to the DAC Magic yet, but I will soon.  I also want to compare the Audio-Gd FUN ("A" version) DAC output to the DAC Magic. I am interested to learn how much difference there is between these DACs. The DAC Magic uses dual Wolfson 8740 DACs and the Adaptive Time Filtering  scheme used on some well regarded Nagra DACs; I really wonder if it's the sound of this unit that some listeners object to, or it's low price.  After all, it simply CAN'T be as good as a $2000 DAC, can it....?  I'm just sayin'.
 


I look forward to reading them.  I'd say though, in reply, that you're correct, but also consider that an amp will amplify distortion as much as it will amplify anything else. If the incoming signal has a higher level of distortion than the amp, then, excluding any improved capability to drive the headphones (which would be most revelant with music that is, say, complex with a high dynamic range) it will not provide any other sonic benefit.
 
Now it comes to mind, regarding one of your early thoughts, I will add the thought that I have had cables that seemed to roll off the treble ever so slightly or possibly otherwise soften the sound.  If I were nearby, I'd lend you a set that, to my subjective impressions, don't do that. PM me if you want to discuss that though as I don't want to derail this otherwise interesting thread with it.
 
Feb 19, 2011 at 12:01 AM Post #174 of 500


Quote:
I tested them with my JH13s. Out of all the amps (Millet MiniMax, Pico Slim, Blue Circle SBH, Peachtree Audio Nova, DNA Sonnett, Onkyo flagship receiver) that I've tested with it, the M^3 (bought used with gain switch of either 2 or 6) disappoints me the most in terms of bass. Simple as that. 
 
As for universal IEMs, I prefer the UM3X over the SM3 because the SM3 has an exaggerated lower midrange that I simply couldn't get over. 
 


Sounds like there's a problem with your M^3. 
 
Anyone else try an M^3 with JH13s?
 
Quote:
Inspired by this thread, I set up my PC and other gear so that I could switch between my Asus Xonar Essence STX's headphone out and Musical Fidelity V-DAC + Heed Canamp combo with only a ~2sec break in the music. I volume matched them with an SPL meter using a 1khz test tone. Listening was done with Sennheiser HD-800. Material was lossless FLAC files of several music genres.
 
After two nights of rigid testing, as far as I can tell, they sound identical. I can't point my finger at any real difference whatsoever. Before, I was under the impression that the V-DAC and Canamp was a warmer, smoother combo than the card's HP-out, but in light of this test I'd have to consider myself proven wrong. This is a 200€ soundcard with a 2$ IC ( I hear ) as an amplifier vs a 250€ DAC and 400€ discrete amp. I feel like I have now lost faith in Hifi, other than the differences between different pairs of speakers or headphones. I feel somewhat angry and disappointed at myself, firstly for having "conjured up" differences where there were none, and on the other hand at having bought almost 1000€ worth of stuff including interconnects that can't outperform a 200€ card. On the other hand, I feel relieved that I'm wearing the best headphones I've heard and I'm apparently getting all out of them. I can sell my stuff without regrets and spend that money on something altogether else.
 
Thanks, OP, for making this thread. For making me doubt myself and for making me test in as objective a manner as I could. You've saved me from a lot of future spending and from spouting a bunch of false BS on the forums.

 
Every time I've done tests like yours I got the same results as you did, so I stopped testing.
 
Never-the-less, I've developed a preference for my NorthStar over my Stello and Constantine and for my GS-1 over my M^3 and Woo3. 
 
 
USG
 
 
Feb 19, 2011 at 4:40 AM Post #175 of 500
A/B tests are useful, but be careful trying to work out exactly what such comparisons "prove." There's a lot of logic dimensions to the epistemology here.  Stereophile just ran a column which points out a few of these thorny points. ("Audio, Meet Science," March 2011 issue) They used these points to frame apologist arguments in favor of their particular brand of subjectivism, but their misuse of these arguments doesn't negate such truth as may be inherent in them.
 
For example, you can't prove a negative by studying examples. That is to say, let's we took RCA cable A  and RCA cable B and devised a proper method for a valid comparison of the sonic impact they had on audio signals passing through them.  Now we allow 1,000 listeners to each conduct an A/B/X  blind listening test.  Let's further hypothesize that none of these 1,000 listeners could tell cable A from cable B at a level any better than chance.  While we have shown that 1,000 listeners can't tell the difference, this does NOT prove that a sonic difference does not exist.  Stereophile is correct in stating this.
 
Now while this is LOGICALLY true, philosophically true, mathematically true, it should be noted that in addition to philosophical considerations, life as it is lived has certain practical nuances. So, while the test cannot show that no sonic differences exist, would YOU spend $600 on a product whose sonic benefits a large number of listeners couldn't hear, and not one single listener that tried the A/B/X test was able to hear a difference?  
 
So, just because you can't hear a difference doesn't prove that no difference exists.  But if it sounds the same to you, this might influence your spending! 
 
There are also well documented placebo effects that can be observed in hearing based tests- the famous one took place under the auspices of the National Research Council Canada.  They do a lot of audio related research, in part to find ways to design better sounding gear to help Canadian manufacturers.  They had a large listening room with a curtain at one end.  A number of listeners were seated in the room -young, old, men, women, musicians, golden-ear audiophiles, regular Joes.  The curtain pulls back to show a bookshelf speaker on a stand.  It has a red cabinet and black grille cloth.  A number of musical selections and pink noise are played.  The curtain closes.  In a short time, the curtain opens again- this time there is a speaker on a stand with a blue cabinet.  The same musical selections and pink noise are played.  The curtain closes.  The audience is asked to write down their impressions of differences between the two speakers.  These are collected and the majority of listeners find that the first speaker had a "warmer, musical" sound while the second speaker had "less bass and a clearer treble."  Actually, however, there was only ONE SPEAKER used.  Stage lights were shown on the speaker that was housed in a MATTE WHITE cabinet- red filtered light made it look like it had a red cabinet, blue filters made it seem a different speaker, with a blue cabinet.  The differences heard were entirely in the minds of the listeners.  The color of the speaker influenced the way the listeners judged the sound.  This is like placebo effect in medicine- the listeners didn't IMAGINE sonic differences- their brains CREATED different audio perceptions for them.  They actually heard these differences, although the differences they heard were based on changes in their perception rather than being related to some physical property of the actual transducers.  The SOUND was same from both red and blue speakers- but that sound was HEARD differently.  
 
It's important to remember that hearing takes place in the BRAIN, not the ears.  There's more that goes into a persons' perception of subtle audio qualities than just sound!  For example, I swear that amplifiers with thick front panels can sound better to me, in spite of myself.  That's why BLIND testing is a better gauge of what, if any, differences a listener can perceive.  I will be doing blind tests before long, I am building the little relay boxes for this and writing a little code, at some point I will start using these gizmos.  (IF I can make them work!  Hah, it's been a long time since I wrote any software aside from some simple shell script type stuff, javascript and kindergarten-level PHP.)
 
Feb 20, 2011 at 10:17 AM Post #179 of 500


Quote:

Yes, it could be used for an A/B switch but there's simpler ways.
 
There's really no need to use an op-amp etc to drive the relay in an A/B switch.  For delayed turn-on and DC offset protection - which is the epsilon's intended use, yes, you need something to do the delay function and something to sense the presence of dangerous DC and drive the relay coil when needed.  But for an A/B switch, you can use an actual DPDT switch to select which of two amplifiers drives the load, or if you have balanced circuits you can use a 4PDT switch.  Instead of a mechanical switch you can always use a relay -  making a 4PDT A/B box for balanced amps using a pair of DPDT relays is easy, perhaps easier than  finding a nice 4PDT switch.  I haven't made one myself, but I do have some A/B boxes I made using relays- I built one to A/B phono preamps, and this box switches the phono cartridge between the two preamps' imputs, as well as selecting which output of the two phono preamps drives the listening amplifier.  This has relays in it, which are energized by some rechargeable AA batteries. There's a switch which sends the DC from the batteries to all the relay coils, so that one simple switch controls the all the action. Using batteries eliminates any ground loops or other signal pollution that using some kind of AC power supply might introduce.  The batteries  can keep the relays in the energized state for 5 hours, long enough for any kind of A/B test session.  This box can also be slaved to another relay - for example, the USB-actuated relay of my prototype computer-operated A/B/X tester.  This interface to my notebook PC uses optical isolation to make sure the PC's chassis / power ground is totally isolated from the audio switching boxes.  All the relay-operated A/B boxes I'm building work either manually by a switch on their front panel or by means of a jack they can be "slaved" to the isolated computer interface.  (Computer interface etc not completed yet.)
 
I'll be posting my phono preamp A/B tests elsewhere, but when I do I'll mention it here in case anyone wants to see it.  I'm comparing a few lower-cost phono preamps.
 
Feb 20, 2011 at 10:37 AM Post #180 of 500
No, but they were probably Canadian.... could have had frostbite damage to their ears. 
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Careful. Might I remind you that Chicago has the third coldest winters of all cities in the continental US. Glass houses being what they are. Black pots and kettles suffering inferiority complexes. etc. :wink:
 

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