Amazon launches Music HD with lossless streaming

[Alcophone]

Actually, I was talking about an HP sound utility that came with my computer, so maybe my situation is different.

Ah, yes, no idea how that is exactly implemented. If Amazon Music's exclusive mode doesn't bypass that I would expect Qobuz, Tidal and foobar2000 to fail to do so as well.

 

[GlenAppleton]

Ah, yes, no idea how that is exactly implemented. If Amazon Music's exclusive mode doesn't bypass that I would expect Qobuz, Tidal and foobar2000 to fail to do so as well.

Both the Qobuz app and Audirvana implement exclusive mode in a way that transport a bit-perfect stream directly to my external DAC. The direct stream uses either WASAPI, ASIO, or Kernel streaming mode and completely bypasses all Windows sound processing, including the HP sound panel.

From what I've read, that is what exclusive mode is supposed to do, and the Amazon Music app doesn't implement it this way.

 

[Tubewin]

What is the EQ panel you are referring to? Do you mean the Enhancements panel in the Windows sound settings?

I just tried the Bass Boost setting with an 18 dB boost at 600 Hz:





This sounds muffled (exclusive mode off):



This does not (exclusive mode on):

So I just tried changing some stuff in windows like low frequency, and as soon as I change it and hit accept the exclusive mode automatically turns off. The enhancement becomes active and exclusive mode automatically slides off. Something isn't working properly with their exclusive mode in my opinion.

 

[Vzyenyx]

jumped on amazon and it's really great love the UI / lyrics etc. Jumped from spotify gonna try out qobuz as well and see how it compares to these two

 

[Alcophone]

Alrighty, I did some investigating. I can record digital audio with my Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd Gen, allowing for some comparisons. Keep in mind, I limited my recordings to the first 60 seconds of each track.

First, I used my Bluesound Node 2i since that is the only device I have that sets the sample rate of a connected DAC correctly for Amazon Music. Consequently, my suspicion has long been that this device is bit perfect, and it is. I recorded it playing some FLAC files from a USB stick and the result is identical to what I have on disk. So that's a good start.

Next I tried to find a song in 24/192 that I have purchased and that is available on Qobuz and Amazon Music as well.

My first attempt was Beck - Paper Tiger, track 2 from the album Sea Change (Qobuz, Amazon Music, HDtracks). While I can get this to play at 24/192 on the desktop, Qobuz didn't play along on the Node 2i for some reason. With another 24/192 song it did, so this was a weird fluke, not sure what happened.
I played and recorded the first 60+ seconds with the Amazon Music integration. Attempts 1, 3 and 4 were identical, attempt 2 had a good chunk that is somehow different. After attempt 2 I turned on the clock trim feature in the Node 2i, maybe it was one of those glitches it's trying to prevent that caused the difference. But broadly speaking, the results are repeatable - one worry I had was that streaming service may leave a slightly different watermark each time you play a song to track copyright infringement. That does not appear to be the case, though.
Comparing the output to what I had on disk from HDtracks was strange. Some chunks were identical, some were not. Scrolling through the list of bit-by-bit differences, I noticed a pattern, there is some regularity to the blocks with different bits. I suspect some watermarking is going on, but I didn't look into it further yet. Unclear whether it's watermarked on Amazon Music or on HDtracks (or both).

My second attempt was Muddy Waters - Good Morning Little Schoolgirl, track 4 from the album The Folk Singer (Qobuz, Amazon Music, HDtracks). The Amazon version and the HDtracks version have the same kind of regular difference as with the previous song, which I find interesting. Actually, for both Amazon and Qobuz, almost exactly the first second is completely identical to the HDtracks version, then the differences start. So very likely there's some watermarking at play here.

For the third attempt I gave up on hi-res, switching to 16/44.1 with Main Titles, track 1 from Christophe Beck's The Pink Panther soundtrack (Qobuz, Amazon Music, Qobuz Store). That was helpful because I bought this album from Qobuz. And the streaming version is exactly identical. Whether I look at the downloaded FLAC file, record the output from the Bluesound Node 2i, use the Qobuz Windows app with ASIO or WASAPI exclusive, I get exactly the same bits. Perfect.
Going to non-exclusive WASAPI mode, there are two short chunks, less than 4 ms long, that are different, everything else is identical to WASAPI exclusive mode. The exact same thing can be observed with the Amazon Music app, the same two parts of the track differ between exclusive and non-exclusive mode, even though the tracks themselves have lots of differences, but also lots of identical segments. Maybe some more watermarking? Anyway, it seems like Amazon Music is using WASAPI whether exclusive mode or non exclusive mode is used.
That is probably good, which we can see when using Qobuz with DirectSound instead of non-exclusive WASAPI mode, resulting in far more differences than between the two WASAPI modes. Still, the vast majority of bits are identical, it looks like it's the loudest segments that differ, possibly because Windows needs to leave some headroom to mix the sound of multiple applications. So if you can choose between DirectSound and WASAPI in any form, use WASAPI.
Lastly, I can confirm that the Amazon Music Windows app's output in WASAPI exclusive mode is identical to the output of the Node 2i with Amazon Music (provided the DAC's bit depth/sample rate matches the track's bit depth/sample rate). So manually adjusting the sample rate of the DAC for each song and using exclusive mode should yield the same result that we should get if the app adjusted the sample rate itself.

For the fourth attempt I used a track that I had on CD, namely Lindsay Lou - Sugar from the album Southland (Qobuz, Amazon Music, Portmerch). That was also very interesting. I found that when ripping the same CD multiple times, you may get largely the same bytes, but maybe a few more or less in the beginning or the end. Similarly, I had to shift the bits a bit to make things line up. Amazon had the better result here, skipping the first 12 samples of Amazon's track made it completely identical with my CD rip. For Qobuz instead I skipped the first 12 samples of my CD rip, then got a small chunk of different bits, with the rest of the file being completely identical. So essentially this song is completely identical between Amazon Music and Qobuz, making it a good candidate to try and see whether you hear differences between the two services.

In summary, using Amazon Music in exclusive mode + matching the DAC's sample rate to the track is objectively the best way to use it. However, skipping exclusive mode seems to make little difference as long as the volume is set to max in the app and on the OS level, enhancements are disabled for the audio device, etc. Yes, it won't be entirely bit perfect, but at least in my testing, 99% of the track had the exact same bits either way. It would be nice if Amazon could set the sample rate for us in exclusive mode, like the Node 2i does.

Apart from that, watermarking seems to be in play for some tracks, possibly from the publisher side and outside of the control of the streaming services. What the impact of those differences is on the sound I can't say, but since the watermarks aren't identical across the services there doesn't seem to be a way to categorically rule out differences in sound even for the same recordings / masters.

 

[GlenAppleton]

Lastly, I can confirm that the Amazon Music Windows app's output in WASAPI exclusive mode is identical to the output of the Node 2i with Amazon Music (provided the DAC's bit depth/sample rate matches the track's bit depth/sample rate). So manually adjusting the sample rate of the DAC for each song and using exclusive mode should yield the same result that we should get if the app adjusted the sample rate itself.

In summary, using Amazon Music in exclusive mode + matching the DAC's sample rate to the track is objectively the best way to use it. However, skipping exclusive mode seems to make little difference as long as the volume is set to max in the app and on the OS level, enhancements are disabled for the audio device, etc. Yes, it won't be entirely bit perfect, but at least in my testing, 99% of the track had the exact same bits either way. It would be nice if Amazon could set the sample rate for us in exclusive mode, like the Node 2i does.

Nice analysis! I believe that the difference in the bits between exclusive (bit-perfect stream) vs. the Amazon implementation which allows Windows to up/down sample based on the DAC settings in Windows is something most people won't really notice or care about. If you have a decent enough computer, the resampling process shouldn't introduce much (if any) digital noise to the music, so just set it to the highest level based on the DAC abilities and you should be good. It would be nice if Amazon eventually updates their implementation of exclusive mode to what many (audiophiles) consider should be standard, and we'll see if they prioritize that change going forward.

One thing I would recommend when using the Amazon app would be to limit other processes (CPU heavy work loads) on the computer if you're doing a serious listening session so the resources can be dedicated to the re-sampling process and avoid potential digital noise introduced in the music stream data. Otherwise, if just casually listening to music in the background, it probably won't be noticeable.

 

[Tubewin]

Sticking with qobuz and audirvana for awhile.

 

[Alcophone]

I believe that the difference in the bits between exclusive (bit-perfect stream) vs. the Amazon implementation which allows Windows to up/down sample based on the DAC settings in Windows is something most people won't really notice or care about.

Using exclusive mode does not prevent resampling, setting the sample rate of the DAC to match the track does (even without exclusive mode). I wouldn't call the potential additional partial changes to the bits when not using exclusive mode "resampling". I thought it might be some form of limiting maybe to prevent clipping but if my math is right, it didn't happen during a particularly loud part of the track.
I'd still agree that at least in this case most people won't notice because it was one < 4 ms chunk that differed, and one even smaller chunk, the rest was identical.
It's still unclear where the resampling occurs, other apps seem to be able to force the DAC's sample rate by using exclusive mode, but this comes down to the WASAPI API, which I don't know much about.

If you have a decent enough computer, the resampling process shouldn't introduce much (if any) digital noise to the music, so just set it to the highest level based on the DAC abilities and you should be good.

That is my recommendation for convenience, but it is not ideal for a number of reasons, even if the computer is up to snuff. One reason is that not all filters (needed for resampling) are created equal, and noise isn't my main concern here. Schiit emphasizes their (mega) combo burrito filter as responsible for some of the sonic pleasantries that can be enjoyed with their DACs. For the Modi Multibit and the original Bifrost Multibit, sending it audio upsampled to 192 kHz will completely bypass that filter. For their other multibit DACs, the filter will still be used to upsample to 352.8 or 384 kHz, but its impact is obviously diminished at that point since its using samples derived by some other filter as the basis. Can you hear that difference? Maybe, maybe not.
I stopped using an external master clock with my reclocker because that resulted in it resampling the audio. Not even upsampling the audio, mind you, merely resampling it with the same sample rate, introducing filter artifacts like ringing into the signal sent to the DAC. That turned out to be responsible for a harshness that almost made me return a new amplifier.
That's why I'm so pedantic about it, as subtle as the impact of filters in general is, I seem to be sensitive to it, if only because typically resampling in the OS means multiple filters are involved. Sometimes I feel like "something isn't right" and discover that some settings changed that resulted in undue resampling. On the other hand, I have no idea how often it happened without me noticing it, so there is that.

It would be nice if Amazon eventually updates their implementation of exclusive mode to what many (audiophiles) consider should be standard, and we'll see if they prioritize that change going forward.

Yupp, it would be. At this point it seems to be a conscious decision by them, possibly to avoid issues when changing sample rates, like brief pauses or glitches, or to increase compatibility with devices. For instance, on one computer I have that only supports 48 kHz (not even 44.1 kHz), Qobuz will completely fail to play 44.1 kHz content when using exclusive mode. Amazon may be trying to avoid that kind of support headache.

One thing I would recommend when using the Amazon app would be to limit other processes (CPU heavy work loads) on the computer if you're doing a serious listening session so the resources can be dedicated to the re-sampling process and avoid potential digital noise introduced in the music stream data. Otherwise, if just casually listening to music in the background, it probably won't be noticeable.

I suspect that most computers are fast enough for the resampling part, or even use hardware acceleration for it. The resampled audio should be identical regardless of the system load. But a busy computer may still may cause more USB noise, jitter or even cause buffer underruns, which is no fun, so while I wouldn't connect this to resampling per se, the recommendation is sound.

 

[GlenAppleton]

Qobuz will completely fail to play 44.1 kHz content when using exclusive mode.

Are you talking about streaming 16/44.1 or playing local (purchased / downloaded) tracks? I ask because I've had no issues with the Qobuz app (when I use it) playing 16/44.1 streams, or even switching between different resolutions in a playlist. My DAC shows the difference using different LED colors behind the volume knob, so I can see that it's changing as it should.

 

[rkw]

on one computer I have that only supports 48 kHz (not even 44.1 kHz), Qobuz will completely fail to play 44.1 kHz content when using exclusive mode.

It has a sound card that only supports one resolution? What computer is it?

 

[Alcophone]

It has a sound card that only supports one resolution? What computer is it?

Lenovo L13 Yoga. You get to choose the bit rate, though! See, there's always a choice!

Are you talking about streaming 16/44.1 or playing local (purchased / downloaded) tracks? I ask because I've had no issues with the Qobuz app (when I use it) playing 16/44.1 streams, or even switching between different resolutions in a playlist. My DAC shows the difference using different LED colors behind the volume knob, so I can see that it's changing as it should.

Streaming. I've only had this issue on this particular computer when trying to use the built-in DAC, which only supports 48 kHz, nothing else. But it turns out that's not the issue...

When I try to use exclusive mode with this DAC, I get the error "The selected device is not recognized by the application."


However, Amazon Music has that same problem. "Unable to Use Exclusive Mode For Selected Device".


So much for my theory about why Amazon might not want to set the sample rate exactly.

I then tried foobar2000, which gave me "Unrecoverable playback error: Device in use". Hm!

After some tinkering, producing the same errors with another DAC if something else was already using it in exclusive mode, killing all kinds of processes that may or may not be using the internal DAC already, I eventually turned off the checkbox next to "Allow hardware acceleration of audio with this device".

Tada, exclusive mode now works, in Qobuz, Amazon Music and foobar2000. Both Qobuz and Amazon Music actually happily play any sample rate through it, whether it's 44.1 kHz, 192 kHz or anything in between. I would not have been surprised if they are limited to 48 kHz and refuse to play anything else, which is what foobar2000 does.

Especially interesting that Amazon Music plays a high quality track and downsamples it instead of what it used to do, namely pick the lowest quality that is still supported by the hardware and upsample it.

Well, mystery solved.

 

[GlenAppleton]

Streaming. I've only had this issue on this particular computer when trying to use the built-in DAC, which only supports 48 kHz, nothing else. But it turns out that's not the issue...

Ah, OK. I took that other bit out of context, so that's what I get for trying to do too many things at once.

Looks like you found an interesting issue with the hardware acceleration setting during your efforts, and that could prove to be good info for others that might have a similar configuration. Excellent analysis, good sir!

 

[senorx12562]

tl;dr: No more changes from native sampling rate of tracks in either Windows or Android. Aft!

It would appear that Amazon Music Unlimited has fixed the two problems with sample rates in Windows and Android. On my phone and tablet (Android) I can now playback from their app at the native sample rate without Android resampling everything to 48kHz, and on a couple different W10 pics, I have been able to do the same, independent of the sound control panel setting in Windows. I set Windows at 32b/384kHz, (the maximum of which my dac is capable) and the Amazon app plays every track at its native rate up to Amazon's max of 192kHz. Amazon accurately displays the max sample rate of the playback device above, and the playback sample rate always matches that of the track itself.

Previously, Windows would playback at the sample rate set in the sound control panel, regardless of the native rate of the track, resampling up or down, while on an Android device, everything was resampled to 48kHz, and UAPP is not usable with the Amazon Android app the way it is with Tidal and Qobuz. My dac still reports the playback sample rate set in Windows, even though Amazon says it is playing back at the native rate of the track. My guess is that the dac I have been using (L&P W2) reports the sample rate as set in the the Windows sound control panel, as it always reports the sample rate as 32b/384kHz, even though Amazon doesn't have any tracks over 192kHz. I'm sure I could obtain the same result sound-wise using a setting of 24b/192kHz, but leaving it at my dac's max means I don't have to screw with the sound control panel if I use JRMC to playback from my local library, which contains some dsd. Oh, and enabling exclusive mode in Amazon's Windows app makes a huge difference for the better in the sound quality, whereas to my ears the difference previously was minimal. I have no idea when these changes took place, but my results have been consistent over the last 2-3 days.

 

[Alcophone]

I can not confirm that the sample rate behavior is fixed, though it may have been improved on Android, I don't know what it was before.

Android: First I updated the app. Then I connected a Topping D10 and played some music. I always got 192 kHz shown as the sample rate. This is slightly different from Qobuz, which shows 48 kHz for tracks with 44.1 or 48 kHz, or 192 kHz for tracks with 88.2/96/176.4/192 kHz.

Windows and Mac: Windows was already on the lastest version, on the Mac I had to update. The result is as before, whatever sample rate is set on the system is what the DAC sees, regardless of the track's quality.

So from my perspective, this is still borked.

I set Windows at 32b/384kHz, (the maximum of which my dac is capable) and the Amazon app plays every track at its native rate up to Amazon's max of 192kHz. Amazon accurately displays the max sample rate of the playback device above, and the playback sample rate always matches that of the track itself.

I think in the past the Windows app always chose a track quality at or below the device's configured sample rate, while later it played the highest quality version even if that required down sampling.

However, that doesn't mean it's not getting resampled. Yes, Amazon will show you the track's quality, but it will get resampled to what it shows under device capability.

UAPP is not usable with the Amazon Android app the way it is with Tidal and Qobuz.

As far as I know, what UAPP can do with Tidal and Qobuz has nothing to do with those respective Android apps. You don't need to have the Tidal and Qobuz apps installed to access those services with UAPP, it's an alternative client.

My dac still reports the playback sample rate set in Windows, even though Amazon says it is playing back at the native rate of the track. My guess is that the dac I have been using (L&P W2) reports the sample rate as set in the the Windows sound control panel, as it always reports the sample rate as 32b/384kHz, even though Amazon doesn't have any tracks over 192kHz.

That means it's getting resampled. The DAC gets a 384 kHz signal. Try using it with Qobuz or foobar2000 and WASAPI or ASIO in exclusive mode, and your DAC should reflect the track's sample rate, no matter what the Windows playback device is set to.

Oh, and enabling exclusive mode in Amazon's Windows app makes a huge difference for the better in the sound quality, whereas to my ears the difference previously was minimal.

Check that you haven't left any EQ settings on in the Windows level settings.

 

[senorx12562]

I can not confirm that the sample rate behavior is fixed, though it may have been improved on Android, I don't know what it was before.

Android: First I updated the app. Then I connected a Topping D10 and played some music. I always got 192 kHz shown as the sample rate. This is slightly different from Qobuz, which shows 48 kHz for tracks with 44.1 or 48 kHz, or 192 kHz for tracks with 88.2/96/176.4/192 kHz.

Windows and Mac: Windows was already on the lastest version, on the Mac I had to update. The result is as before, whatever sample rate is set on the system is what the DAC sees, regardless of the track's quality.

So from my perspective, this is still borked.


I think in the past the Windows app always chose a track quality at or below the device's configured sample rate, while later it played the highest quality version even if that required down sampling.

However, that doesn't mean it's not getting resampled. Yes, Amazon will show you the track's quality, but it will get resampled to what it shows under device capability.


As far as I know, what UAPP can do with Tidal and Qobuz has nothing to do with those respective Android apps. You don't need to have the Tidal and Qobuz apps installed to access those services with UAPP, it's an alternative client.


That means it's getting resampled. The DAC gets a 384 kHz signal. Try using it with Qobuz or foobar2000 and WASAPI or ASIO in exclusive mode, and your DAC should reflect the track's sample rate, no matter what the Windows playback device is set to.


Check that you haven't left any EQ settings on in the Windows level settings.

I see no evidence of any resampling going on on either Android or Windows. The only difference is in how the w2 reports the sample rate. On my desktop dac that has a display, the playback sample rate is reported as the same as what Amazon reports the track's native sampling rate to be, meaning the dac is reporting what it is receiving, not the setting in the Windows sound control panel. As far as I am concerned, these problems have been resolved to my satisfaction. Sorry you disagree. But then I always thought the whole kerfuffle was much ado about nothing anyway. And no, I have never used any eq or dsp in Windows or any playback apps, including Amazon.