[Max Choiral]

Thank-you for that. You have actually fallen into my trap! Lol.

But seriously your answers are proving what I’m trying to say, with all these posts. And not to call anyone not smart. If anything I’m not the smartest at all and I have a mountain of mistakes to prove it.

What I’m trying to get across is everyone can have different hearing. That’s the big mystery at Head-Fi.............. how all these people can interpret IEMs a different way. Obviously there are parallels and times when we do get a bunch of folks in agreement. But just for kicks let’s make a small and incomplete list of variables.

1)Source
2)Tips and Actual Fit
3)Personal Subjective Taste
4)Shape Of Inner Ear

So right there is a small list. But your post is explaining why you don’t understand how people could tolerate an imperfection in response.

For thousands of dollars the cymbals come off a sizzle mess.

The point I’m making is either the fit or hearing of the individuals don’t actually perceive that. Some people are treble sensitive. The other factor is what ever frequency the sizzle is at they don’t notice it or care to not notice it and focus on other things.


It’s true that there is group buying hype. And it IS true that at times headphones and IEMs get popular with giant holes in the response. Also too if those areas are pointed out, at times then the whole group, or half the group will also fall inline with such criticism.

My point is though, how could the most popular IEM in the last 5 years have blatant issues that everyone hears?

My simple point is they don’t hear it. Everyone hears differently or cares about different aspects.


The second idea that comes to mind, is it’s not the issues with the new IEM, it’s the contrast in what your used to hearing. This was the main part of a post here in this thread a while back. If you have relatively non treble-ish IEM as your favorites, a new demo may come off too bright.

I think, your "simple point" hits the mark.
1)people don't hear it;
2) hear imperfection but let it slide;
3)care about something else

 

[Max Choiral]

Well this topic is kinda complicated.

_Lots_ of people like Ferrari but actually they are not that good on a race track and in everyday live they are not that good either and the least thing they are, is reliable.

I remember the advertisement for the old Honda NSX where a guy (was it Ayerton Senna?) shows his new car to his father and he says "Wow son, you bought an ferrari?" and he replies "No Father, its reliable, its a Honda"

I maybe drifting kinda off-topic here anyway, there is a general rule of thumb that the more expensive the speakers are, the better they sound, even if they sound 100% identical and only the design and price point changed. That doesn't mean the IER-Z1R don't sound better compared to cheaper alternatives, i just want to say that the price; the fact being able to afford it, the brand and so on seems to obviously influence how good somethings sounds to a certain degree, no matter how good it really sounds.

But i am no excuse to that. The only reason i gave the Teufel a chance in the first place was because i was _very_ satisfied with the Ultima 40 and the way the companies is lead by its owner.

So i thought, who knows, they might be good, just give them a chance and they turned out to be amazing. So even i are guilty for judging products by its price and i think no one is an excuse here.

If you are one of those who like the sound of the IER-Z1R and you bought them, they are, of course, the best Headphones no matter how others are.

Not everyone is like that, but feeling sympatic for an product or an brand does, i am sure, influence how much joy a products give us if we like it. So the Headphones are good, i am sure, but if you really like the sound and you like Sony and you bought them for 2200€, this will give them an extra bonus in "felt" sound quality

That's right.
Have you ever met anyone who dislikes Sony consumer products for music listening? Everybody loves Sony!

 

[SilverEars]

That's right.
Have you ever met anyone who dislikes Sony consumer products for music listening? Everybody loves Sony!

I don't, and there are many people that prefers other than Sony. If it was back in the walkman days, when they ruled, they were good, but that not anymore the case. They make playstations these days. Lol

I don't like the sound of their overpriced products. I don't own any Sony products. I have an LG OLED TV, I use Eddie Current tube amp or Bryston amps, I use Sennheiser headphones, Moondrop iems. Sorry, no Sony for me. Disliked their high price for not worthwhile performance. I refuse to support the company.

There are many products out there, and better values. No need to go Sony.

 

[524419]

I don't, and there are many people that prefers other than Sony. If it was back in the walkman days, when they ruled, they were good, but that not anymore the case. They make playstations these days. Lol

I don't like the sound of their overpriced products. I don't own any Sony products. I have an LG OLED TV, I use Eddie Current tube amp or Bryston amps, I use Sennheiser headphones, Moondrop iems. Sorry, no Sony for me. Disliked their high price for not worthwhile performance. I refuse to support the company.

There are many products out there, and better values. No need to go Sony.

I wouldn't go that far. Sony's players are works of art. especially their DMP-Z1.
Stunning, simply incredible. My jaw just dropped when first listened to it.
The IER-Z1R stock, without modifications is another story. And I respect @Whitigir 's opinions, and give him the benefit of doubt that removing the filters improves the IEM.

 

[baskingshark]

I totally understand what you mean, but as a musican, i have different requierements. If the sound is nothing like the real instrument, and i own the real instrument, the last thing i want is to train my brain to accept the sound that does not sound like the real instrument. This would be very troublesome.

My requirements, and i totally understand that others have different ones, are Headphones with an natural, linear and accurate sound.

If i listen to a Solo play on an acoustic guitar, i like it most when it sounds like the guy is sitting in front of me and playing.

Sure, as you said, its not possible to have an 100% recreation, Micrphones are a whole world for themself and it already starts to change the sound there and its not like i listen to my music in 100% natural an flat.

Lets say it like that. I am also an photographer and i want my camera and lenses to recreate an 100% accuarate and as good as possible image i then can turn into something to my liking in the RAW Converter.

The same is true for me for music. I want an setup that is as natural, flat, accurate as possible and then tune it to my liking using an EQ.

Other photographers have different needs, they, for example, use Fisheye Lenses or Tilt-Shift Lenses or just lenses with an specific look&feel to them due to an special coating on the lense or an specific lense setup and so on.

I will maybe give the IER-Z1R a second try, but as it seems i am not the only one who feels like that and i am not suprised that Max Choiral who shares my experience is also an musician

Actually I think timbre is a very overlooked area in audio gear. From reviews/impressions I read from lay consumers and even from the majority of professional reviewers, some with big outreach, nothing at all is mentioned about timbre (or perhaps a small footnote at best). Most of the focus of reviews nowadays seems to be on the FR, technicalities, packaging, fit etc. I really appreciate the prominent reviewers who do make more than a brief mention about timbre in their reviews.

Well timbre cannot be measured objectively or graphed, so it is quite a subjective element. Other than vocal timbre, one must hear a real acoustic instrument upfront (perhaps multiple times) to know how it exactly sounds like. I realized after a few years in this hobby, that I also prefer IEMs and cans with good reproduction of timbre over technicalities, as I'm also a musician. Generally DD sets tend to have better timbre than BA ones, but of course there are exceptions. But different strokes for different folks, some would prefer technicalities over timbre, some are not particular about timbre, and I guess some music genres which incorporate less acoustic instruments and more synthetic stuff may not benefit that much from timbre per se. So as always, YMMV.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I don't, and there are many people that prefers other than Sony. If it was back in the walkman days, when they ruled, they were good, but that not anymore the case. They make playstations these days. Lol

I don't like the sound of their overpriced products. I don't own any Sony products. I have an LG OLED TV, I use Eddie Current tube amp or Bryston amps, I use Sennheiser headphones, Moondrop iems. Sorry, no Sony for me. Disliked their high price for not worthwhile performance. I refuse to support the company.

There are many products out there, and better values. No need to go Sony.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sony-nw-wm1z-wm1a.815841/page-2287

There are over 33,000 posts in the “New Walkman” thread since their addition in 2016. Though I get how a person can start to boycott a company and product range. I remember early on listening to STAX systems and figuring the sound quality (tone) was not my cup of tea.

So it’s not liking the company tone and finding stuff over priced.

I may have said this too many times in this thread, but I promise I will not waist thread real estate on the subject any longer. Tone is everything. Sony actually changed their tone 360 degrees in 2016. So there is a complete different sound. You may have heard the new Sony, or maybe not?

Most people can have a very opinionated view of a company’s house sound. I personally have an issue with the “mid-forward” signature. Having friends who love a flat and mid-forward signature gives a person a window into just how different people’s idea of tone can be.

There are whole companies who design mid-forward tone IEMs. Just as Sony now has incorporated a V signature on a lot of IEMs and headphones. It doesn’t necessarily make it bad, just not for everyone.

 

[524419]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sony-nw-wm1z-wm1a.815841/page-2287

There are over 33,000 posts in the “New Walkman” thread since their addition in 2016. Though I get how a person can start to boycott a company and product range. I remember early on listening to STAX systems and figuring the sound quality (tone) was not my cup of tea.

So it’s not liking the company tone and finding stuff over priced.

I may have said this too many times in this thread, but I promise I will not waist thread real estate on the subject any longer. Tone is everything. Sony actually changed their tone 360 degrees in 2016. So there is a complete different sound. You may have heard the new Sony, or maybe not?

Most people can have a very opinionated view of a company’s house sound. I personally have an issue with the “mid-forward” signature. Having friends who love a flat and mid-forward signature gives a person a window into just how different people’s idea of tone can be.

There are whole companies who design mid-forward tone IEMs. Just as Sony now has incorporated a V signature on a lot of IEMs and headphones. It doesn’t necessarily make it bad, just not for everyone.

The Discussion was about IEM's having authentic timbre, where instruments sound like their real life counterpart, especially acoustic instruments.
That is not Sony's focus on the IER Z1R. A musician who has first hand intimate knowledge of how instruments sound, will be left wondering why people are paying thousands of dollars for it.
At the end of the day, this is all subjective anyways, doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, as long as you enjoy it.

 

[524419]

Agree on the statement about planars BUT it should be mentioned that this type of transducer absolutely hates enclosure, even more than a regular dynamic driver. VERY hard to implement in closed-in construction without severe drawbacks in SQ.
Harman Curve resulting in inoffensive sound? That's new, I've never heard of such opinion before.

Harman curve is too bass heavy, and MIDs light.

https://reverb.com/news/psychoacoustics-a-practical-guide-to-how-our-mind-distorts-sound

The human ear picks up Mids more than Bass and Treble, the Harman curve has this the other way around, it is trying to recreate a Dynamic speaker instead of recreating a sound that you would hear live. That is the timbre problem with V shapes, it works with modern bass heavy synthesized music, but is nowhere close to how you would hear real acoustic instruments. Musicians looking for accuracy of playback, spot it instantly.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I don't, and there are many people that prefers other than Sony. If it was back in the walkman days, when they ruled, they were good, but that not anymore the case. They make playstations these days. Lol

I don't like the sound of their overpriced products. I don't own any Sony products. I have an LG OLED TV, I use Eddie Current tube amp or Bryston amps, I use Sennheiser headphones, Moondrop iems. Sorry, no Sony for me. Disliked their high price for not worthwhile performance. I refuse to support the company.

There are many products out there, and better values. No need to go Sony.

The Discussion was about IEM's having authentic timbre, where instruments sound like their real life counterpart, especially acoustic instruments.
That is not Sony's focus on the IER Z1R. A musician who has first hand intimate knowledge of how instruments sound, will be left wondering why people are paying thousands of dollars for it.
At the end of the day, this is all subjective anyways, doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, as long as you enjoy it.

Actually you may think the discussion was about Timbre? But I was simply addressing his specific post which has been quoted once more?

It’s OK not to like the IER-Z1R, though I’m pretty sure the timbre it’s possible of is a fully subjective opinion. Some like the timbre quality of the IER-Z1R. In fact for me it’s the most realistic thing I own?

 

[Redcarmoose]

Harman curve is too bass heavy, and MIDs light.

https://reverb.com/news/psychoacoustics-a-practical-guide-to-how-our-mind-distorts-sound

The human ear picks up Mids more than Bass and Treble, the Harman curve has this the other way around, it is trying to recreate a Dynamic speaker instead of recreating a sound that you would hear live. That is the timbre problem with V shapes, it works with modern bass heavy synthesized music, but is nowhere close to how you would hear real acoustic instruments. Musicians looking for accuracy of playback, spot it instantly.

I like that idea. As the IER does sound like speakers? So am I contradicting myself here? Maybe?

 

[Redcarmoose]

The Discussion was about IEM's having authentic timbre, where instruments sound like their real life counterpart, especially acoustic instruments.
That is not Sony's focus on the IER Z1R. A musician who has first hand intimate knowledge of how instruments sound, will be left wondering why people are paying thousands of dollars for it.
At the end of the day, this is all subjective anyways, doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, as long as you enjoy it.

So these guys are wrong?

https://crinacle.com/rankings/iems/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/aminus-hates-everything-or-aminus-rants-and-reviews-stuff.911048/

 

[524419]

I like that idea. As the IER does sound like speakers? So am I contradicting myself here? Maybe?

I think we are all saying the same thing in a roundabout way.
The Harman Curve is not accurate, can it be fun? can you grow to love that sound? Absolutely.
It is just not going to sound like real live instruments., and especially to a trained ear.

As far as these reviews go, I don't know who these guys are, what their criterias are, etc etc etc and I don't think accuracy of playback (Timbre) is high up as one of their concerns.
Reviews like preferences in sound are subjective, it's just an opinion.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I’m all for folks learning what could be an expensive flagships faults. If anything such talk is so much better than endless hype, and group hype, which often seems to run amok here. Also I have always stated here in this thread and other places, that liking an IEM is simply self-delusion to an extent. I mean the entertainment is real, how much the IEM is delivering actual reality is another subject in it’s own.

It’s within these parameters that we let ourselves start to believe the illusion. And IEMs are going to be perceived and sound different to every individual. Sometimes a little different and at times a lot. If keying in to timbre ends up on the top of the list then it’s a matter of opinion if it’s wrong or right? For me the IER-Z1R had certain separation of tones which seemed indicative of each instrument. But I have been around a lot of live music, not sure how correct each instrument sounded? If anything stuff you wouldn’t even expect was coming from the IER-Z1R; like Robert Plant’s voice being clear, or the distortion of Jimmy Page’s guitar sounding electric?

But I’m not sure how reference the IER-Z1R is even suppose to be? It’s tone is like big floor stander speakers. I’m not even sure if someone could mix with it. The treble is enhanced as well as bass fortified. It’s a fun entertaining sound. It’s maybe not for critical listening though is detailed?

Other IEMs like the M7 or M9 are suggested to be the monitors. The IER-Z1R is the big boxy 1960s Hi/Fi experience.

These two sides have always been sided since maybe the 1950s in audiophile circles. And you would see it in people’s home use. One person has their stereo with the tone knobs pointing straight up, others have the knobs tilted, regardless of room or speaker response.

 

[Vamp898]

I don't, and there are many people that prefers other than Sony. If it was back in the walkman days, when they ruled, they were good, but that not anymore the case. They make playstations these days. Lol

I don't like the sound of their overpriced products. I don't own any Sony products. I have an LG OLED TV, I use Eddie Current tube amp or Bryston amps, I use Sennheiser headphones, Moondrop iems. Sorry, no Sony for me. Disliked their high price for not worthwhile performance. I refuse to support the company.

There are many products out there, and better values. No need to go Sony.

Seems like i have to start another Thread called "Am i the only one who dislikes the sound of Tube Amps" but not sure if it is worth the dislikes