[Max Choiral]

Do you know how many posts there are about musicians feeling the headphones or IEMs don’t sound real? Lots and lots. Members of classical symphonies chime in all the time that they sit near real instruments and KNOW what real instruments sound like.

It’s fine for you to validate your opinion that way. Also it’s maybe more respectable than say someone who listens to EDM all day and maybe is looking for other important attributes from an IEM.

It’s perfectly OK to not like the IER-Z1R; a ton of folks don’t like them. People feel they are not integrated. People feel the bass is too heavy or treble too hot. This stuff is all subjective as everyone hears differently. Also there is no right or wrong. No one is correct for liking something, making no one wrong for not liking an IEM. It is just taste as well as maybe psychological attributes of what someone was exposed to early in life and told was correct playback. But no one really knows? It could that the parents had big floor stander speakers and after a whole summer of the speakers everything else.......even a more realistic and flat response then seemed thin.

What I’m expressing is that you think BAs sound incorrect. And that there is a chance you could still like them at a future date. Or maybe not. But most of all I’m trying to get across that so much stuff has a different sound. That everything almost is one of a kind in flagship land. That the color can make someone like an IEM. That it’s color and things sounding off, that make the listening experiences fun. The IER-Z1R is in a way very carefully tuned but also kind of extreme in it’s approach? No IEM is perfect, but there are issues in places. After you hear a bunch of IEMs it becomes easy for yourself personally to find fault with some ways IEMs are tuned. It may not even be the over all tune, but a small place it the frequency response that sticks out and bugs you. Others may not notice that one place at all, or even like the response.

Photographs don’t look like life at all. Again it’s simply another lie we tell ourselves. There is no RAW file that’s going to change that. But again it’s psychologically. What ever you tell yourself to believe you can believe. Just like we fool ourselves into thinking we are listening to real music. Even a $100,000 system gets only 10% there, but we fool ourselves otherwise. You can think IEMs sound like real instruments if they are only DD, but you can train your mind to believe anything; just like the RAW imaging. Cheers.

And it's just a matter of time when smb will say "Oh, you don't like poop? Well, it's OK, everyone has different preferences". You're justifying the existence of a lot of stuff with a poor price to performance ratio right now.

It most likely could not be done with IEMs or headphones. But if someone had really well recorded guitar; just a single guitar.....it could be played back from a stage in an auditorium and could be volume matched to sound very very close to a live performance.

Same with a low volume jazz band. A super expensive stereo set up just so could maybe sound very close and just possibly exactly the same as real performances?

I’ve heard some elaborate home two channel systems that did jazz pretty convincing. Maybe it could be played behind a curtain and many would be fooled as to it being played live. But loud drums or vocals have never had accurate replay as life, at least in my experiences. Also this style of contest would require volume replay; they would be the equivalent of non amplified real instruments to work. But with headphones I seriously don’t think it would ever be believable as real?

I believe you miss the point. A tone and timbre of a musical instrument are important for him first of all.

 

[Max Choiral]

del

 

[Vamp898]

Just for the record, i was testing headphones roughly 4 weeks ago and after testing tons of headphones i finally decided for my MOVE PRO from Teufel and i am very satisfied with them.

So i am not looking forward to buy new headphones in the near future, i am always open for new recommendations but i really like the ones i have now and i hope they will last for a while

I wanted to share my experience and get to know some people who made the same, or totally different ones, to better understand what exactly i did not like about them.

I hope I haven't started some sort of fight, I think there is enough room for any opinion and if someone likes an hybrid setup, I'm OK with that but I am very sure that this is not the right thing for me and I hope that's okay with others too

 

[Redcarmoose]

And it's just a matter of time when smb will say "Oh, you don't like poop? Well, it's OK, everyone has different preferences". You're justifying the existence of a lot of stuff with a poor price to performance ratio right now.


I believe you miss the point. A tone and timbre of a musical instrument are important for him first of all.

1) If someone absolutely loved the CA Atlas IEM due to the bass, even over a way more expensive IEM (and possibly better IEM).............I would suggest that’s their prerogative. If they said that the Atlas was superior due to (the fact) that it’s a pure DD construction; then that’s there freedom to do so.

I personally find the Atlas too bass heavy. I also think the individual could always possibly find a BA IEM that they still like also. What I’m saying is different people key in to different qualities in an IEM. There is no right or wrong. The person in love with the CA Atlas is not wrong in anyway.

2) I’m pretty sure in my description of a contest between real life and stereo-replay the tone and timbre would need to be emulated by the stereo? If he feels only the best tone and timbre comes from a DD at this point in time that’s his prerogative; I’m simply saying keep an open mind.

This thread, while important, will basically be the same as the electrostatic driver VS dynamic driver argument. No matter what it's simply taste.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Just for the record, i was testing headphones roughly 4 weeks ago and after testing tons of headphones i finally decided for my MOVE PRO from Teufel and i am very satisfied with them.

So i am not looking forward to buy new headphones in the near future, i am always open for new recommendations but i really like the ones i have now and i hope they will last for a while

I wanted to share my experience and get to know some people who made the same, or totally different ones, to better understand what exactly i did not like about them.

I hope I haven't started some sort of fight, I think there is enough room for any opinion and if someone likes an hybrid setup, I'm OK with that but I am very sure that this is not the right thing for me and I hope that's okay with others too

Only a debate.

 

[Max Choiral]

1) If someone absolutely loved the CA Atlas IEM due to the bass, even over a way more expensive IEM (and possibly better IEM).............I would suggest that’s their prerogative. If they said that the Atlas was superior due to (the fact) that it’s a pure DD construction; then that’s there freedom to do so.

I personally find the Atlas too bass heavy. I also think the individual could always possibly find a BA IEM that they still like also. What I’m saying is different people key in to different qualities in an IEM. There is no right or wrong. The person in love with the CA Atlas is not wrong in anyway.

2) I’m pretty sure in my description of a contest between real life and stereo-replay the tone and timbre would need to be emulated by the stereo? If he feels only the best tone and timbre comes from a DD at this point in time that’s his prerogative; I’m simply saying keep an open mind.

This thread, while important, will basically be the same as the electrostatic driver VS dynamic driver argument. No matter what it's simply taste.

When an IEM with a price tag of hundreds or thousands of dollars recreates sounds of cymbals in a manner of sizzle mess that you cannot even tell whether a drummer hitting crash or something else - that's not a different quality, that's a total failure.

 

[Redcarmoose]

When an IEM with a price tag of hundreds or thousands dollars recreates sounds of cymbals in a manner of sizzle mess that you cannot even tell whether a drummer hitting crash or something else - that's is not a different quality, that's a total failure.

I agree but that sounds extreme. Give examples?

 

[Redcarmoose]

When an IEM with a price tag of hundreds or thousands dollars recreates sounds of cymbals in a manner of sizzle mess that you cannot even tell whether a drummer hitting crash or something else - that's is not a different quality, that's a total failure.

So true, but maybe only some think as so? Meaning if an IEM is popular there is normally some redeeming quality?

 

[524419]

I recently tested several headphones with balanced armature drivers like the Sony IER-Z1R and maybe i just had bad luck, but for me they all sound like i'm listening to music using a tin can or an hearing aid (not that i need one, hearing test attested very good hearing at -5db)

I tried several different types of music, from Orchestra to Rock to Metal to Electro and i disliked everything i heard.

Not from the quality point of view, the quality was awesome. There were awesome details and the music was extremly fine, but it was also extremely thin, the music just didn't had any body and no depth at all.

I think what added most to my dislike was the complete absent of any bass, even after putting the 63Hz band to +10db and the 310Hz band to +5db it sounded extremely thin. All balanced armature i tested have been combined with dynamic drivers but it seems that this didn't help the situation.

As an example i want to name スピードと摩擦 (speed to masatsu) from amazarashi where in the beginning you have a lot of sound going on in the lower frequencies and then suddenly, after all this electronic bass sound, an acoustic guitar goes into the song.

With my current Headphones (Teufel MOVE PRO) this part, where the acoustic guitar comes in, just sounds awesome. The electric bass part consists of sounds with very different amount of attack and after that the extremely clear guitar joins the party which is heard as an complete separated and individual instrument. Then later later the voice joins, an electric guitar, the drums, and all are separate instruments playing in their own world and it all comes together to give the song in the end.

Its like you're in the middle, inside of the music and the music plays around you

It is hard to describe but with the IER-Z1R the feeling was completely different. I did not feel like im inside the music and its around me, it just played. It was just there.

Normally i listen to music with my sound system at home and i produce music myself where i use monitors and i am used to a lot of different speaker sounds but i never heard such strange music than from balanced armature drivers.

They sound like they have higher quality, but it sounds so extremely unnatural and "electronic" or "mechanic" but somehow everyone is hyped about these and goes like crazy over Hybrid Headphones and whatever.

Of course this is just my personal taste but i don't get the hype at all. For me they sound worse than dynamic drivers. Not from a quality point of view (but high quality dynamic drivers aren't much worse either) but i would never use any of these headphones for music.

I guess they are awesome when you want to analyse the music i guess, you could use them as Monitors pretty well maybe, but for listening to music, for enjoying music, i can hardly imagine that.

After this experiment i can say for sure that, at least for me, Linear Dynamic Drivers are the best for enjoying music and i am curious if i am the only one who feels like that.

Planars have the Closest to life tonality on IEMs.
I have a Legend x that is a hybrid bass monster, an LCDi4 planar headphone, and an RHA CL2 planar iem.
Of the three, the set that has the closest to life tonality, and the one that manages to recreate instrument timbre to that extent is the RHA CL2. It also happens to be the cheapest IEM of them all. It isn't very well regarded on Head-Fi because it's tuning is quite peculiar.
I share your opinion of the Sony IER also, cymbals on that IEM have no crash, they sound very muted, and the bass is not very agile.
I hope you find an IEM you like, with you being a musician, most of these headphones are going to disappoint. The harman curve does not lend itself to accuracy of playback, it is merely an inoffensive sound.

 

[Max Choiral]

I agree but that sounds extreme. Give examples?

So true, but maybe only some think as so? Meaning if an IEM is popular there is normally some redeeming quality?

Can't recall all examples but I have at least one which is hard to forget because of local hype in my area. It will be a contradiction to your second statement too.
It's CA Andromeda old gen. Tried it twice with a break of several months and my opinion didn't change at all. Strangely, Andro Pacific Blue was OK, there weren't immediate major issues with highs during my audition, no apparent hollowness in midrange too. Just 1.5x more expensive, but you can have some basic fundamentals, eh? Nice strategy

 

[Max Choiral]

Planars have the Closest to life tonality on IEMs.
I have a Legend x that is a hybrid bass monster, an LCDi4 planar headphone, and an RHA CL2 planar iem.
Of the three, the set that has the closest to life tonality, and the one that manages to recreate instrument timbre to that extent is the RHA CL2. It also happens to be the cheapest IEM of them all. It isn't very well regarded on Head-Fi because it's tuning is quite peculiar.
I share your opinion of the Sony IER also, cymbals on that IEM have no crash, they sound very muted, and the bass is not very agile.
I hope you find an IEM you like, with you being a musician, most of these headphones are going to disappoint. The harman curve does not lend itself to accuracy of playback, it is merely an inoffensive sound.

Agree on the statement about planars BUT it should be mentioned that this type of transducer absolutely hates enclosure, even more than a regular dynamic driver. VERY hard to implement in closed-in construction without severe drawbacks in SQ.
Harman Curve resulting in inoffensive sound? That's new, I've never heard of such opinion before.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Thank-you for that. You have actually fallen into my trap! Lol.

But seriously your answers are proving what I’m trying to say, with all these posts. And not to call anyone not smart. If anything I’m not the smartest at all and I have a mountain of mistakes to prove it.

What I’m trying to get across is everyone can have different hearing. That’s the big mystery at Head-Fi.............. how all these people can interpret IEMs a different way. Obviously there are parallels and times when we do get a bunch of folks in agreement. But just for kicks let’s make a small and incomplete list of variables.

1)Source
2)Tips and Actual Fit
3)Personal Subjective Taste
4)Shape Of Inner Ear

So right there is a small list. But your post is explaining why you don’t understand how people could tolerate an imperfection in response.

For thousands of dollars the cymbals come off a sizzle mess.

The point I’m making is either the fit or hearing of the individuals don’t actually perceive that. Some people are treble sensitive. The other factor is what ever frequency the sizzle is at they don’t notice it or care to not notice it and focus on other things.


It’s true that there is group buying hype. And it IS true that at times headphones and IEMs get popular with giant holes in the response. Also too if those areas are pointed out, at times then the whole group, or half the group will also fall inline with such criticism.

My point is though, how could the most popular IEM in the last 5 years have blatant issues that everyone hears?

My simple point is they don’t hear it. Everyone hears differently or cares about different aspects.


The second idea that comes to mind, is it’s not the issues with the new IEM, it’s the contrast in what your used to hearing. This was the main part of a post here in this thread a while back. If you have relatively non treble-ish IEM as your favorites, a new demo may come off too bright.

 

[CoryGillmore]

There is no official information. Sony claims the BA is playing "high frequencies" but I have my own sources to debunk that. Take a look at the impedance here (from the unnamed site):

There is no way the impedance can stay this flat if there is a crossover between the large DD and BA. If there was and they tried to correct it, it would most definitely not show a straight line impedance.

It was my understanding that the M9 and Z1R both share the same titanium "super tweeter" that Sony developed in house. But I have heard people also say that a DD is doing the "tweeting"

 

[Whitigir]

How do we come from IER Z1R having no bass to no trebles sparkles ?

IER Z1R has beautiful trebles crashes and metallic sparkles if you modify the Acoustic foams. But I guess for a stock to stock buds, I will have to agree here.
Then again, I am sorry for anyone who don’t dare to swap out the Z1R acoustic foams to hear the best of what it could do

On another hands, I understand why Sony tunes it that way...because the trebles fidelity is very picky on source quality. Plug it to an IPod or a lousy DAP and you will either hear sibilants or “Yuck”!!! It is all due to the Universal signature of the IER Z1R

There are even measurements of the foams on and without the foams, and is proven of what I mentioned.

However, Bass can only be lacking if there is no good seals, and these 2 are very different problem in itself

 

[Vamp898]

Thank-you for that. You have actually fallen into my trap! Lol.

But seriously your answers are proving what I’m trying to say, with all these posts. And not to call anyone not smart. If anything I’m not the smartest at all and I have a mountain of mistakes to prove it.

What I’m trying to get across is everyone can have different hearing. That’s the big mystery at Head-Fi.............. how all these people can interpret IEMs a different way. Obviously there are parallels and times when we do get a bunch of folks in agreement. But just for kicks let’s make a small and incomplete list of variables.

1)Source
2)Tips and Actual Fit
3)Personal Subjective Taste
4)Shape Of Inner Ear

So right there is a small list. But your post is explaining why you don’t understand how people could tolerate an imperfection in response.

For thousands of dollars the cymbals come off a sizzle mess.

The point I’m making is either the fit or hearing of the individuals don’t actually perceive that. Some people are treble sensitive. The other factor is what ever frequency the sizzle is at they don’t notice it or care to not notice it and focus on other things.


It’s true that there is group buying hype. And it IS true that at times headphones and IEMs get popular with giant holes in the response. Also too if those areas are pointed out, at times then the whole group, or half the group will also fall inline with such criticism.

My point is though, how could the most popular IEM in the last 5 years have blatant issues that everyone hears?

My simple point is they don’t hear it. Everyone hears differently or cares about different aspects.

Well this topic is kinda complicated.

_Lots_ of people like Ferrari but actually they are not that good on a race track and in everyday live they are not that good either and the least thing they are, is reliable.

I remember the advertisement for the old Honda NSX where a guy (was it Ayerton Senna?) shows his new car to his father and he says "Wow son, you bought an ferrari?" and he replies "No Father, its reliable, its a Honda"

I maybe drifting kinda off-topic here anyway, there is a general rule of thumb that the more expensive the speakers are, the better they sound, even if they sound 100% identical and only the design and price point changed. That doesn't mean the IER-Z1R don't sound better compared to cheaper alternatives, i just want to say that the price; the fact being able to afford it, the brand and so on seems to obviously influence how good somethings sounds to a certain degree, no matter how good it really sounds.

But i am no excuse to that. The only reason i gave the Teufel a chance in the first place was because i was _very_ satisfied with the Ultima 40 and the way the companies is lead by its owner.

So i thought, who knows, they might be good, just give them a chance and they turned out to be amazing. So even i are guilty for judging products by its price and i think no one is an excuse here.

If you are one of those who like the sound of the IER-Z1R and you bought them, they are, of course, the best Headphones no matter how others are.

Not everyone is like that, but feeling sympatic for an product or an brand does, i am sure, influence how much joy a products give us if we like it. So the Headphones are good, i am sure, but if you really like the sound and you like Sony and you bought them for 2200€, this will give them an extra bonus in "felt" sound quality