[mvvRAZ]

This is not true. The BA is playing the entire midrange along with the big DD without a crossover, both full range. The BA is even playing a bit of the bass.

Is that information available on any official Sony website?

I'm not questioning you specifically, but I've heard a solid 4-5 different theories as to what driver is doing what in the Sony and I'd love something official from Sony to confirm it haha

 

[Whitigir]

Not sure what exactly you mean with "Stereos". Over Ear? For me Stereos are the big stand speakers i have at home^^ so that might be confusing.

After testing a lot of different Over Ear, i decided for the Teufel REAL BLUE NC (40mm Linear HD Dynamic Drivers) because they were the only one, that made the music not sound like ass when ANC is turned on. The downside of this is, that the ANC is pretty weak (afaik the Teufel have the weakest ANC on the market).

Sure it always is a compromise but if i have to take an compromise, i rather choose the weaker ANC and better music.

But i dont like the overall sound of over ear (even with ANC disabled), and i have not found any In Ear which had an acceptable sound with ANC enabled so far.

Thats why i own both. In-Ear for listening to music in quiet areas, Over Ear with ANC for Train rides.

And that was exactly what I meant.

 

[toranku]

Is that information available on any official Sony website?

I'm not questioning you specifically, but I've heard a solid 4-5 different theories as to what driver is doing what in the Sony and I'd love something official from Sony to confirm it haha

There is no official information. Sony claims the BA is playing "high frequencies" but I have my own sources to debunk that. Take a look at the impedance here (from the unnamed site):

There is no way the impedance can stay this flat if there is a crossover between the large DD and BA. If there was and they tried to correct it, it would most definitely not show a straight line impedance.

 

[Vamp898]

And that was exactly what I meant.

Ah ok, then let me answer your questions

what stereo do you have ?

Teufel Ultima 40 (2018 Model aka Mk3)

how does stereos get to be compared to in ear ? =/

That was not my intention. I think there are common requierements for speakers in general to a certain degree both In-Ears and Stereos have to fullfill. Nobody wants an mushy sound, no matter if Stereo or In-Ear. I have certain requierements my Stereos have to fullfill and some of them i also apply on In-Ear but not all of them and i don't compare them.

And the In-Ear i own do a better Job than the In-Ear i tested with BAs

If you like stereos, just stick with it

I don't want to carry 40kg to work and i doubt all of my work mates appreciate my taste in music. But i don't want to compromise in music quality when i'm out of home. If im on a 3 Weeks vacation somewhere in the nowhere, i want to enjoy my music in the best quality possible.

 

[Max Choiral]

Well i play a lot of instruments. Beside several guitars i play flutes and tin-whistles, Double Bass, Cello and so on and i record them too.

So i at least think i know pretty much how instruments are supposed to sound and in my experience, they just don't sound the way they are supposed to sound with BAs.

I also always use Tatsuya Maruyama to test several aspects of Headphones, one of the songs i always use for testing is Frustration2 from Collage from Tatsuya Maruyama (this Song is just perfect for testing headphones) and when i listen to that Song with my MOVE PRO, the guitar sounds just perfect. It sounds exactly the way it is supposed to sound. It sounds like Tatsuya visited me in my brain and is playing a private concert for me.

With different Headphones of course the sound varies and there are lots of cheap/bad DD out in the market, but this effect just doesn't happen with any of the hybrid headphones i tested so far. I put on the headphones and Tatsuya says "No, no visit from me, just the song, nothing else, there you go"

With your demands which are quite similar to mine due to experience with musical instruments, I believe you will have a hard time searching among hybrids and multi BA.
It was a PITA for me and in the end, I gave up. Mind you, my curiosity stopped at 2k$ mark
Even if you do find even one worth option, there're some other unpleasant bonuses like non-linear impedance and phase issues leading to incoherency, inconsistent sound with different sources. So here you're, paying a large sum of hard-earned money for in-ear monitor and now you need to find a matching source(cables, tips etc) to play it "right". Sorry, but that sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.
Stick to single DD(dynamic driver), that's my advice. Maybe try upper-tier dynamic stuff from different brands. For example, the latest iems from JVC (HA-FW1500, HA-FW10000).

 

[Whitigir]

Ah ok, then let me answer your questions

Teufel Ultima 40 (2018 Model aka Mk3)

That was not my intention. I think there are common requierements for speakers in general to a certain degree both In-Ears and Stereos have to fullfill. Nobody wants an mushy sound, no matter if Stereo or In-Ear. I have certain requierements my Stereos have to fullfill and some of them i also apply on In-Ear but not all of them and i don't compare them.

And the In-Ear i own do a better Job than the In-Ear i tested with BAs

I don't want to carry 40kg to work and i doubt all of my work mates appreciate my taste in music. But i don't want to compromise in music quality when i'm out of home. If im on a 3 Weeks vacation somewhere in the nowhere, i want to enjoy my music in the best quality possible.

I understand what you meant very well. I have Yamaha Soavo large stereo and Yamaha A-S3000. I still found IER Z1R to do wonderfully for an in ears.

I am not even sure if the BA is used for the whole mid spectrum, but I do hear it somewhere and sometimes in upper mid, which as I said if paid too much attentions, In-cohesiveness would be spotted out but is very hard to do so

I am a fan of Large stereos, Stax SR009 and T2 amplifier, HD800S, and I was not going anywhere to touch in ear buds, until IER Z1R

I would wage my bet again that you did not have good Seal and good tips.

Otherwise, I can only say sorry that it didn’t work out for you. I am pretty sure that I am not the only person who think IER Z1R is a phenomenal ear buds

 

[Redcarmoose]

I understand what you meant very well. I have Yamaha Soavo large stereo and Yamaha A-S3000. I still found IER Z1R to do wonderfully for an in ears.

I am not even sure if the BA is used for the whole mid spectrum, but I do hear it somewhere and sometimes in upper mid, which as I said if paid too much attentions, In-cohesiveness would be spotted out but is very hard to do so

I am a fan of Large stereos, Stax SR009 and T2 amplifier, HD800S, and I was not going anywhere to touch in ear buds, until IER Z1R

I would wage my bet again that you did not have good Seal and good tips.

Otherwise, I can only say sorry that it didn’t work out for you. I am pretty sure that I am not the only person who think IER Z1R is a phenomenal ear buds

So much of this hobby is simply relative to what your used to. Say someone has only a 15 inch computer monitor or TV. I’m not saying they are bad, just using the size as an example. One day a friend gives you a 25 inch monitor, and due to the contrast in size, it’s a big deal. Then imagine what happens to the guy used to a 65 inch TV, when he then switches to the 25 inch monitor.

As a whole on Head-Fi I don’t see folks focusing on what they are used to causing them to have an off perception complex when trying to ascertain the quality of a new product.

The brain is simply used to what it has been told is correct. Anything (even better) replay that is different can be viewed as wrong. I brought out some IEMs that I had not heard since 2015. They were some cheap IEMs which I actually enjoyed in 2015. The point is that the sound was absolutely different from what I remembered them to sound like. It was the contrast in the way they sounded to what I’m currently used to. As a whole we tend to trust our perception, even though our perception is far from reality.

When we listen to music artificially recreated it’s not real music. There are lists and lists of basic issues that we are able to mentally overcome to fool our minds into thinking it’s actually perfect.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Talking_Machine_Company#Victrola

When the very first Victrola record players came out, audiophiles believed they were recreating music. The sales pitch was that the masters dog was fooled into thinking it was his masters voice. Our minds are fabulous at recreation of partial events. People watch movies and feel emotions that are normally a response to real life.

These same mental skills are learned and key into various important character traits in the music playback. It’s safe to say people listening to 2 channel setups in a room key into different qualities than IEMs. People with full size headphones also key into different characteristics which in turn create the illusion of perfectly reproduced music. Sadly nothing could be farther from the truth.

Even the very best built reproduction is filled with imperfections and holes that can be noticed fixed in real life music played. Though one reason we do have success is at times headphones can reproduce an abstract form of expression even different (maybe better) than live music. Also no wall treatment are needed, in comparison to stereo room set-ups. The IER-Z1R does so much right, though many are not going to comprehend what’s going on until a long ownership period giving time for the mind to adjust and start to mentally draw the illusion. Each new piece of headphone equipment needs time for adjustment, as the mind is leaning to simply say yes.


All of us are fooled like this dog.

 

[Vamp898]

Each new piece of headphone equipment needs time for adjustment, as the mind is leaning to simply say yes.

I totally understand what you mean, but as a musican, i have different requierements. If the sound is nothing like the real instrument, and i own the real instrument, the last thing i want is to train my brain to accept the sound that does not sound like the real instrument. This would be very troublesome.

My requirements, and i totally understand that others have different ones, are Headphones with an natural, linear and accurate sound.

If i listen to a Solo play on an acoustic guitar, i like it most when it sounds like the guy is sitting in front of me and playing.

Sure, as you said, its not possible to have an 100% recreation, Micrphones are a whole world for themself and it already starts to change the sound there and its not like i listen to my music in 100% natural an flat.

Lets say it like that. I am also an photographer and i want my camera and lenses to recreate an 100% accuarate and as good as possible image i then can turn into something to my liking in the RAW Converter.

The same is true for me for music. I want an setup that is as natural, flat, accurate as possible and then tune it to my liking using an EQ.

Other photographers have different needs, they, for example, use Fisheye Lenses or Tilt-Shift Lenses or just lenses with an specific look&feel to them due to an special coating on the lense or an specific lense setup and so on.

I will maybe give the IER-Z1R a second try, but as it seems i am not the only one who feels like that and i am not suprised that Max Choiral who shares my experience is also an musician

 

[SilverEars]

There is no way the impedance can stay this flat if there is a crossover between the large DD and BA. If there was and they tried to correct it, it would most definitely not show a straight line impedance.

You talk like you're an expert here without it being your own measurements even. From some random measurement found online.

You are wrong. It is not completely flat across the audible frequency spectrum, but starts to take a dive after 2khz if you look closely. So, the highs shows that it's likely not dynamic driver doing the work there, but the BA.

So, the impedance response clearly shows there are divison of driver outputs, so please stop spreading false information that it's flat.

 

[toranku]

You talk like you're an expert here without it being your own measurements even. From some random measurement found online.

You are wrong. It is not completely flat across the audible frequency spectrum, but starts to take a dive after 2khz if you look closely. So, the highs shows that it's likely not dynamic driver doing the work there, but the BA.

So, the impedance response clearly shows there are divison of driver outputs, so please stop spreading false information that it's flat.

That's the crossover to the tweeter causing that impedance to fall. If the BA was crossed at then it would show an uneven impedance curve below 1khz.

And no that is not some "random measurement". Another impedance measurement on a Korean blog supports the same data.

Edit: To add. The 2k boost from the FR measurement is from the large woofer. The 3k peak is from the BA. They are playing on a larger range than you think.

 

[Vamp898]

You talk like you're an expert here without it being your own measurements even. From some random measurement found online.

You are wrong. It is not completely flat across the audible frequency spectrum, but starts to take a dive after 2khz if you look closely. So, the highs shows that it's likely not dynamic driver doing the work there, but the BA.

So, the impedance response clearly shows there are divison of driver outputs, so please stop spreading false information that it's flat.

According to Sony, the BA is not active from the begging but rather joins the party later.
https://www.sony.jp/products/picture/y_IER-Z1R_001.jpg
But this is just an "consumer illustration" and nothing serious so who knows how correct that is.

 

[SilverEars]

According to Sony, the BA is not active from the begging but rather joins the party later.
https://www.sony.jp/products/picture/y_IER-Z1R_001.jpg
But this is just an "consumer illustration" and nothing serious so who knows how correct that is.

That usually how hybrids are configured because the large size DD are more desireable due to the better bass response. That's why it's flat earlier on, due to the DD, and when the line deviates from the flat, the BA takes over.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I totally understand what you mean, but as a musican, i have different requierements. If the sound is nothing like the real instrument, and i own the real instrument, the last thing i want is to train my brain to accept the sound that does not sound like the real instrument. This would be very troublesome.

My requirements, and i totally understand that others have different ones, are Headphones with an natural, linear and accurate sound.

If i listen to a Solo play on an acoustic guitar, i like it most when it sounds like the guy is sitting in front of me and playing.

Sure, as you said, its not possible to have an 100% recreation, Micrphones are a whole world for themself and it already starts to change the sound there and its not like i listen to my music in 100% natural an flat.

Lets say it like that. I am also an photographer and i want my camera and lenses to recreate an 100% accuarate and as good as possible image i then can turn into something to my liking in the RAW Converter.

The same is true for me for music. I want an setup that is as natural, flat, accurate as possible and then tune it to my liking using an EQ.

Other photographers have different needs, they, for example, use Fisheye Lenses or Tilt-Shift Lenses or just lenses with an specific look&feel to them due to an special coating on the lense or an specific lense setup and so on.

I will maybe give the IER-Z1R a second try, but as it seems i am not the only one who feels like that and i am not suprised that Max Choiral who shares my experience is also an musician

Do you know how many posts there are about musicians feeling the headphones or IEMs don’t sound real? Lots and lots. Members of classical symphonies chime in all the time that they sit near real instruments and KNOW what real instruments sound like.

It’s fine for you to validate your opinion that way. Also it’s maybe more respectable than say someone who listens to EDM all day and maybe is looking for other important attributes from an IEM.

It’s perfectly OK to not like the IER-Z1R; a ton of folks don’t like them. People feel they are not integrated. People feel the bass is too heavy or treble too hot. This stuff is all subjective as everyone hears differently. Also there is no right or wrong. No one is correct for liking something, making no one wrong for not liking an IEM. It is just taste as well as maybe psychological attributes of what someone was exposed to early in life and told was correct playback. But no one really knows? It could that the parents had big floor stander speakers and after a whole summer of the speakers everything else.......even a more realistic and flat response then seemed thin.

What I’m expressing is that you think BAs sound incorrect. And that there is a chance you could still like them at a future date. Or maybe not. But most of all I’m trying to get across that so much stuff has a different sound. That everything almost is one of a kind in flagship land. That the color can make someone like an IEM. That it’s color and things sounding off, that make the listening experiences fun. The IER-Z1R is in a way very carefully tuned but also kind of extreme in it’s approach? No IEM is perfect, but there are issues in places. After you hear a bunch of IEMs it becomes easy for yourself personally to find fault with some ways IEMs are tuned. It may not even be the over all tune, but a small place it the frequency response that sticks out and bugs you. Others may not notice that one place at all, or even like the response.

Photographs don’t look like life at all. Again it’s simply another lie we tell ourselves. There is no RAW file that’s going to change that. But again it’s psychologically. What ever you tell yourself to believe you can believe. Just like we fool ourselves into thinking we are listening to real music. Even a $100,000 system gets only 10% there, but we fool ourselves otherwise. You can think IEMs sound like real instruments if they are only DD, but you can train your mind to believe anything; just like the RAW imaging. Cheers.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I totally understand what you mean, but as a musican, i have different requierements. If the sound is nothing like the real instrument, and i own the real instrument, the last thing i want is to train my brain to accept the sound that does not sound like the real instrument. This would be very troublesome.

My requirements, and i totally understand that others have different ones, are Headphones with an natural, linear and accurate sound.

If i listen to a Solo play on an acoustic guitar, i like it most when it sounds like the guy is sitting in front of me and playing.

Sure, as you said, its not possible to have an 100% recreation, Micrphones are a whole world for themself and it already starts to change the sound there and its not like i listen to my music in 100% natural an flat.

Lets say it like that. I am also an photographer and i want my camera and lenses to recreate an 100% accuarate and as good as possible image i then can turn into something to my liking in the RAW Converter.

The same is true for me for music. I want an setup that is as natural, flat, accurate as possible and then tune it to my liking using an EQ.

Other photographers have different needs, they, for example, use Fisheye Lenses or Tilt-Shift Lenses or just lenses with an specific look&feel to them due to an special coating on the lense or an specific lense setup and so on.

I will maybe give the IER-Z1R a second try, but as it seems i am not the only one who feels like that and i am not suprised that Max Choiral who shares my experience is also an musician

It most likely could not be done with IEMs or headphones. But if someone had really well recorded guitar; just a single guitar.....it could be played back from a stage in an auditorium and could be volume matched to sound very very close to a live performance.

Same with a low volume jazz band. A super expensive stereo set up just so could maybe sound very close and just possibly exactly the same as real performances?

I’ve heard some elaborate home two channel systems that did jazz pretty convincing. Maybe it could be played behind a curtain and many would be fooled as to it being played live. But loud drums or vocals have never had accurate replay as life, at least in my experiences. Also this style of contest would require volume replay; they would be the equivalent of non amplified real instruments to work. But with headphones I seriously don’t think it would ever be believable as real?

 

[Redcarmoose]

@https://www.head-fi.org/members/vamp898.527767/

The reason you don’t like the IER-Z1R is they simply may not be your desired sound signature. From what you write you most likely want a flat response. And while there are arguments as to what that flat response would truly be, the IER-Z1R is definitely a departure from that. The IER-Z1R has a recession in the midrange. But the point of all my posts here is that people learn to accept it as accurate. It’s really hard to explain until after you have experienced it, but even though Sony gear has a predominate heavy bass and tweaked treble; those best moments are when the whole signature actually starts to sound mid-centric. It’s not of course mid-centric, but the folks here who are really into that sound signature will tell you nothing is missing and the mids, not only sound correct but seem to be most of what the IER-Z1R signature is about. Your brain can adapt at times.