[ramachandra]

"My old Audigy2 had superb base, i don't understand what's wrong with the X-Fi.." Nothing, except the muting circuit, what the Audigy 2 probably had. Those transistors help to produce more solid bass but degrade the clarity in exchange. 
 
"(btw, i read somewhere that the Elite Pro supplies the Opamps with +/-12V .. i know the other X-FI's supply just 5V if i'm not mistaken. ..Just a thought.)" I have not had a look on that when the Elite Pro was here. This voltages are present in the PCI socket and I don't know what was the point to not using it on the others then.
 
"Did the OPA1602AID (or other opamps) help at all with the base??" Very much, and do more than that. You will be surprised about the details of bass with this chip. It has clear but not hear piercing high, the mids are beautiful the string instrument are really alive.
 
"I'm also wondering if the opamp replacement only acts as a "hardware equalizer" " Definitely not. It is like trying a pair dirt cheap speakers sound like a good expensive pair. It just not gonna happen.
 
"Do you know if anyone measured the audio outputs or distortion before and after changing any opamps??" I had seen few measures on the Layman's Guide.
 
"designed for each other, and changing it will only introduce distortion to the sound" On the level what humans usually not able to hear, yet enough for some people to go nuts on it. You will find most OpAmps work without complications. If you get a chip what is not like the config you pull it out and put in another what it does. Simple. For example I have built the reference circuits from the datasheet of the OPA1602 and I had a problem. With any chips I have used in it I loved the sound, except with the OPA1602.
 
"i would really like to be sure that the improvements are real"  I'm sure the PIONEER VSX-D557 is next, you just don't know yet.

 
"- Also, related to the main power CAP; do you know if it's connected in parallel? or in series? " I doubt it is in series. I do not have my faulty XtremeMusic to do more scratching to find it out for you. I had another card I have not mentioned above, it is suffered damage on a faulty PCI extension. I kept it for sometime to exploring then i dumped.
 
"did you happen to test the AD8599 OpAmp?" No.

 

[Foxer]

"Did the OPA1602AID (or other opamps) help at all with the base??" Very much, and do more than that. You will be surprised about the details of bass with this chip. It has clear but not hear piercing high, the mids are beautiful the string instrument are really alive.
 

OMG, this argument single handedly sold me on the OPA1602AID )))) I'm ordering it as soon as i settle on the capacitors! (I have a few Panasonic FM's in mind for main cap [FM esr < FC esr] , as i'm not able to find ELNA or Blackgates)
 
..Might also get some AD8599.. they praised it way too much over here>> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/x-fi-sound-bugs-i-think-i-have-a-solution.23582/​ so i might as well give it a try. 
 
Also those 3 pages on the linked forum were such a good read! For instance, in this post http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/x-fi-sound-bugs-i-think-i-have-a-solution.23582/page-2#post-836847 the user @trodas posted some images of @bichi's work, in >this pic< shows measurements of the main power Cap, before and after replacement with a solid polymer 330uF at !! 6.3V !! with ultra low ESR (0.025ohm)..
and they said that there's only 1.23V passing through there, so the 16V cap is overkill (altho the original CAP there is known to crap out... which shouldn't happen to a 16v cap running at just 1.23V .. but i don't know...). Most of the images there seem to be missing, but are still downloadable once you click on them. It's just such a shame that the "X-Fi_Elite_Pro_parts.txt" file isn't available for download anymore

, as that could have helped me. There is A LOT of info on those 3 pages.. although i can't verify (or sometimes even understand) almost half of it 

  But it seems that the main power cap might not be just a myth
 
I'm loosing way too much sleep over this soundcard ...reminds me of college 

 

 

[ramachandra]

Good to have at least few different OpAmps in the beginning. Some of them may not turn out as favorite later, but there will be certain things what they do better or different than the others. A pleasing experience specially with headphones.
 
I was talking to my relative about modifications in the very beginning, and he was skeptic. I went to the local store to get a 2200uF general purpose and few 0.1uF film capacitors. I have soldered the new stuff on and he was happy about the small improvement, He sad, I just realize I had no bass before. He thought It is done. I sad I haven't yet started, this is only a small demonstration. The cost was insignificant.

 

[Foxer]

Yes, this is the route i'm intending to take also.. first step: try and get my bass back 

 ..and make sure my ears and audio hardware can sense the difference.
 
I will soon place the order on Farnell for the OpAmps and capacitors (sadly they don't have small films of less than 100V, which seems a bit much..  i may try to find some locally ..[also no compatible TCXO on their website] ) and i will post updates on how things are going. 
 
Thanks sooo much Ramachandra!!

 

[SlimBo]

hi Everybody
i need help with my Asus Xonar DS & My Xi-Fi Xtreme Audio
i want to short some caps for better sound clarity but i don't know which one...
THX

 

[ramachandra]

When i tried to short caps the flat sound, no dynamic on the front channel left me unimpressed on the XtremeMusic, the rest was OK. You find 2 caps belong to every OpAmps on the right side of each. The images on the thread shows the decoupling capacitors on different cards, it will help to locate them. So you can solder the pins together without removing them and decide.
 
The DS already have relays on the signal path of the front, so nothing can be done on that. The rest of the channels have, but i never had this cards, and i rather not go in details even it is working in theory. I'm sure other threads are available somewhere.
 
My opinion is, new audio grade capacitors and OpAmps do a much better job in comparison. If you really love this cards a precise clock do a miracle too, and later you can reuse it on your better hardware.

 

[SlimBo]

i thank you for your answer ramachandra

 

[Atif Mehmood]

Hi
I can't find that pin can u help me plz ??

 

[Atif Mehmood]

Hi
I can't find that pin to cut +5v supply
can u help me plz ???

 

[ramachandra]

I guess you looking for the output pin of the ST 78M05, what is on the top left corner of the regulator. C197 is printed on the PCB beside. Datasheet here.

 

[Foxer]

Dear @ramachandra .. it's bean a while since we talked, and i can't thank you enough for your guidance!
I finally (successfully)  moded my Elite Pro 

 
- I replaced all 4 stock OpAmps with the OPA1602AID you suggested 
- I replaced all 16 output decoupling capacitors (for all 4 channels) with ELNA Silmic II of the same values (47uF 16V)
- I replaced the 2 caps for the power supply of the opamps, with ElNA Silmic II of the same values (220uF 25V)
 
- I replaced the main power cap (the one after the power supply chip) with a 100uf 6.5v MURATA ceramic capacitor + a 1500uf 16v Panasonic FK with an ESR of 0,060 ohms.
Also tried 1000uf 6.3V Pana FC with ESR of 0,090ohms .. with no apparent sounding difference.. Actually no CAP here made any sounding difference to me.. but only tested with the speakers, not the headphones. (Also, there are actually only 1.25v passing through there, and it's only going to the digital processor, so i don't know how on earth would this affect the base... except if it's also going someplace else?! idk).
Next up, will be a Pana FM 1200uF@6.3V w/ ESR: 0,026 ohms. And this is kind of the limit that the Power supply chip can withstand in terms of low ESR. 
 
- I replaced C154 (the 22uf 16v cap before the power supply chip) with a Panasonic FC 100uF
- Put a grounded "shield" on the back of the sound card, made of: aluminium foil, paper, and scotch/sticky tape. ... which... didn't have any effect whatsoever on the sound. 
 
Before i state the conclusions, i also want to mention one more thing: I too had the crackling sound problem in some games (batman arkam asilum, GTA5,  Heaven and Valley benchmarks were the worst) which has been a bit reduced after changing the capacitors before and after the power supply chip. And MORE reduced after doing the rest of the mods, which i did all in one go. 
Also i tried the card on a friend's computer, the sound artefacts were there only 50% of the time (this was after changing only the 2 caps @ the power supply chip TPS54352). My PC-s power supply IS 6 years old, and does have awful coil whine when in load.. so i'm also taking that into consideration, as the artefacts manifest themselves only when the PSU is also "screaming".  
 
 
Ok, conclusions time:
 
You know how i complained about the x-fi not sounding as sweet as the Audigy 2 ?? (although the X-fi had better music resolution and clarity) 
Well that's now over. It sounds so much like the Audigy2, that they are almost indistinguishable! Literally!
I played the same set of tracks that i played almost a year ago when i did the comparison, on both computers, testing both cards in parallel, same player, same headphones, and i could barely, BARELY distinguish between the two.
Compared to b4 the mod,  the X-fi now has more volume and sounds nicer, pleasant highs, mids, and especially base.. but sadly, the refinement has gone

 .. I can also barely distinguish between Entertainment mode, and Audio Creation mode w/ 44.1khz setting and "bitmatched" enabled.... The "premium" sound is just not there any more. 
I don't know if it's the caps, or the opamps that are cutting out all that detail, but i'm really wondering why this is happening..  What i want to try, is to put a WIMA PPfilm of 0.15uf 250v  +  a 10uf 25v ELNA SilmicII on the +/- of the opamp, and see if this changes anything... If not, i'm also gonna change the two 220uf silmics with some low ESR Panasonic FM's.. bcoz Silmics have pretty high ESR sadly... 
Maybe it's that. Just the opamps not having enough constant juice.. I read something about rail-to-rail opamps bringing in more distortion, and 1602 are rail-to-rail.
Also, i noticed a really big positive difference in sound dynamics when i turn the volume (in windows) from 50% to over 70%. 
 
Overall, the Elite Pro is now more pleasant to listen to, and not fatiguing any more.. But i can definitely sense that some of it's good aspects are also gone..
Although i could go back (as i didn't damage any of the stock components), I don't regret the mod...  I'm just kinda pissed as the card is now only a tiny bit better than the audigy 2.
 
I also want to continue and replace most (if not all) of the remaining caps on the card with Panasonic FC/FM in pursuit of getting rid of the crackling/artefacts. 
 
 
I will post updates as i make changes
 
----- 
Pic during upgrade.
The new opamps (with decoupling caps still out for more room to work, eventually replaced with silmics II)

 

[ramachandra]

Hello Foxer,
 
So you couldn't  give up on the idea to make your own beast. Good.
 
The bigger caps for the X-Fi chip also have an impact on the separation of the instruments and the space around the listener.
 
Now, not only the hidden positive properties surface, but also the remaining weaknesses. If you make further progress around the DACs you get more analog sound, and I strongly recommend install a TCXO to get the badly needed clarity.
 
Early on the thread I have agreed the decoupling caps have the most improvement on the sound after the new OpAmps. Few years and modified cads later I have to admit the new caps for the DAC chip have the bigger impact. The decoupling caps only have a little in comparison. There is a common misunderstanding in the audio wold, what I believed about the capacitors on the signal path in the past. Most people think it is enjoy the priority to upgrade to improve sound, and the rest maybe have some effect, or none. The time proved to me this assumption is wrong.
 
"If not, i'm also gonna change the two 220uf silmics with some low ESR Panasonic FM's.." Give a chance for the burn in. Panasonic FM, FC only the entry level for audio, the Lowest ESR not the automatic winner on the analog section. A different personal preference of course make perfect sense. We are all different.
 
The owner of the Elite Pro card I have modified had another, before we had met. He told me he sold it after few years of use. One day he found the capacitors are just about to fail.
When he got the current he became disappointed, the new had different sound and set of capacitors. The Creative shown tendency to make changes to fix problems related to reliability and cut back on cost & quality on the same models. No wonder why yours having the cracking sound.

 

[Foxer]

@ramachandra
     A friend who is pretty advanced in electronics, also told the me same! That the caps for the DACs (2 for each DAC on the E.Pro) would make a huge difference if they were changed.
As i can make out, there is one cap  for the power supply of the DAC (100uF@24V i think), and the other is on the signal output of the DAC (which i think is the most important one - 47uF@16V i think). I may have to make sure which is which.
The DACs currently have G-Luxon [SS] ("general-purpose" Series) on them. So basically ESR either wasn't taken into consideration..  either, it shouldn't be too small.
.---What do you suggest for the DAC's? ELNA Serafine? Something else? Please elaborate as much as you can here

     (i was thinking a good choice would be SILMIC 2 on the output (which i only have 2 of them left from my previous order), and Pana FC on the power supply side. Problem is, i can't get any more ELNAs

. Coz the next order has to be from FARNELL and they don't have ELNA.)
 
 
"and I strongly recommend install a TCXO to get the badly needed clarity."
 
     Yes, I've been thinking about this for a few days, and been making a bit of research.
Problem is the supply for the 4-pin TCXO.. in this MOD, it's getting voltage directly from the computer's PSU... which isn't too good, as it needs REALLY clean power (or at least that's what i read).
So i was thinking... what if i could find a normal 2-pin crystal of far superior quality compared to the one on the board(?!) And i'm still researching this, as i just found out that these crystals also have "capacitance" ratings.. And i'm trying to find out what mine's rating is for best compatibility (if all else fails, I recently bought a Capacitance/ESR meter 

).
 
 
"Give a chance for the burn in. Panasonic FM, FC only the entry level for audio, the Lowest ESR not the automatic winner on the analog section. A different personal preference of course make perfect sense. We are all different."
 
       After a "burn in" for @15-20hours using mostly headphones with 70-75% volume in Windows, it did start to sound a bit more detailed, and to distinguish a bit more from the Audigy 2, but not as much as before the MOD... Something definitely robed the sound card of a little bit of detail.. 
This week i will have time to add the WIMA caps (and maybe the 10uF silmics) in the OpAmps voltage supply pins.. And see if that helps with anything.
(Measuring with the ESR meter, i saw that the 220uf silmics have almost half of the ESR of the previous G-Luxon caps.. So i'll leave those alone

  )
 
 
"The bigger caps for the X-Fi chip also have an impact on the separation of the instruments and the space around the listener."
     I still don't understand how this is possible, if it only affects the digital processor

..
 
---------
 
Later edit:
 
Upon further inspection, i don't think any of the caps that belong to the DACs, are for the signal output.
If they were, then there had to be 2 identical caps (1 for left stereo channel, and 1 for right stereo channel).
So maybe they are both for voltage input.. I will check as soon as i get the chance

 

[ramachandra]

On the other X-Fi cards there is one decoupling capacitor for the positive one for the negative input so that is 2 caps/channel and 4 caps/OpAmp. You find loads of ELNA or Nichicon on eBay often cheaper. The different plastic cover on ELNAs are common, not because they are fake or inferior quality. Use Silmic II for the decoupling or Nichicon KZ. For the rest use Silmic II to get nice warm analog or Cerafine to get a colder precise sound. Both of them will make the sound warmer, and I recommend the Cerafines if your amplifier will get a similar mod or loaded with ELNAs already, otherwise the Silmic II is the best you can get, according me and most people.
If there is a cap on the digital VDD pin 9, the solid electrolyte Sanyo OS-CON proved itself to be excellent in external DACs, to bring the circuits to the next level of clarity.
 
The crystal is only a part of the clock, the rest need to be just as good. The lot of 1 and 0 is nice on paper, in reality the same rules of physics apply for analog and digital circuits. If we looking the history of the digital computers, there are mountains of technical challenges had to be overcome to achieve the clean, precise signals, using never perfect components, under never perfect conditions. The main chip is react to the changes and that is normal. The schematic from it is well kept secret, and certainly go light years beyond my understanding.

 

[giannis89]

  Those are power section caps according to this?
http://i.imgur.com/Jj0twHN.jpg

 
Where the hell did THIS some from?? is it correct? 
 
ps. Almos, it's Giannis. i'm back