[SilverEars]

"I don’t think the average consumer will care if they’ve not heard better sounding headphones though"
"They will have no awareness what so ever. I will go as far as to say, a lot of them want the Apple look. If we look at Beats, it's about image and it's particular design associated with the life-style people that wears them, which is no different from apparel. And they enjoy music out of it, no matter how bloated the bass is. lol There's a general human nature thing about people enjoying things not for just for functionality or performance, but due to a branding or the looks. We can call it placebo or whatnot, but as quoted from the Matrix, "ignorance is bliss."

The above is the usual "us" vs. "them" narrative that is IMO way too prevalent on some "audiophiles" boards and serves no other purpose than to comfort some people in the pretension that they know better.
While, for some of them, listening to HPs that measure a lot worse than some pairs of Beats. The irony is that the phrase "There's a general human nature thing about people enjoying things not for just for functionality or performance, but due to a branding or the looks." could apply to so many of the headphones discussed in these boards.
if we want our discussions to focus on "functionality or performance" then it would be a good idea to stop being prejudiced about headphones on the basis of their brand, looks - or mass market appeal.



My own subjective impressions would be only of limited use to you anyway - particularly for anything trebles related :
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/airpods-max.949152/post-16064061

Never said, anything about "us" vs them. Never said 'elitist' like you implied, etc.. I've said that Beats marketing is about association of image as that's how they are marketed with celebrities wearing them, and this was when their performance wasn't good at all. Which exemplifies the human nature for such marketing to work. And commented about how such marketing of image work, and similar to apparel. This has no implications of what you stated, but just plain comments on how marketing goes on in general. You are simply taking thing the way you want to take it, but was never implied. At least not implied in the way you are saying I did.

And I don't see how that link has anything to do with what I asked if you heard those headphones. You posted just measurements, and I was wondering if you heard them or not. I am interested if you heard them or not since you are trying to make some points about them (in which I'm not getting). I want to know if you heard them.

 

[tinyman392]

The DEVA pair I have were less than half of the price of the APM but I really wanna try them out...

Yeah, that seems about right. Keep in mind the APM don’t sound like 500 dollar headphones, I wasn’t expecting them to either. You have to pay for that ANC, transparency, and other stuff, so I was expecting them to be comparable to headphones ⅓ their price.

 

[fabripav]

Yeah, that seems about right. Keep in mind the APM don’t sound like 500 dollar headphones, I wasn’t expecting them to either. You have to pay for that ANC, transparency, and other stuff, so I was expecting them to be comparable to headphones ⅓ their price.

Yeah honestly i'm ok with them sounding like a $ 300 pair, given all the extra features they have

 

[tkddans]

Ordering APM (again)
After using my newly arrived Schiit Loki on my HD800S, and discovering how wonderful an analog hardware-based EQ is, I discovered that even Loki’s magic couldn’t give me back the high quality of the APM sub-bass.

I looked at the frequency charts, saw that the APM are about 12 dB higher at 20 hz; I then adjusted the dial at 20 hz to push to +12 dB and....the HD800S did get boomier, but the sub bass capability just wasn’t the same.

I’ve even gone through a bunch of YouTube videos reviewing and comparing $1000+ headphones, planar magnetic and dynamic open backs, and I keep realizing no one does sub bass the way APM does.

So, for the relatively affordable $550 (in the audiophile world), I’m ordering a new green pair. While I wait for them to arrive in early March, I’m going to listen to the HD800S with my new Loki EQ settings.

I miss the signature sound of the APM too much to abandon. I’m currently looking at them as a good additional desk rig headphone, to complement my HD800S. Then they have a perk of ultra portability!

Who knows, maybe when I get them back I’ll return them again after further listening! Hah!

 

[tinyman392]

What happens to all these returned pairs?

They’ll be sent back to Apple and the exterior will be made new. The interior components will be reused with the exception of the battery that is replaced. At least that’s what I’ve read about how Apple’s products are dealt with. The AirPods Max are the first headphone that can actually be repaired in this fashion.

 

[MayaTlab]

Never said, anything about "us" vs them. Never said 'elitist' like you implied, etc.. I've said that Beats marketing is about association of image as that's how they are marketed with celebrities wearing them. Which exemplifies the human nature for such marketing to work. And commented about how such marketing of image work, and similar to apparel. This has no implications of what you stated, but just plain comments on how how marketing goes on in general. You are simply taking thing the way you want to take it, but was never implied. At least not implied in the way you are saying I did.

An argument could be made that any form of marketing is an association of sort (and you can rest assured that "audiophiles" are bombarded by marketing, albeit perhaps of a different kind, and frequently falling for it for reasons not too dissimilar to what you mentioned), but if we stick to celebrities :

It isn't that other brands aren't trying to do the same, it's just that they aren't as good at it .

And I don't see how that link has anything to do with what I asked if you heard those headphones.

It simply shows one of the several reasons why, provided a pair of headphones measure reasonably well, my subjective impressions of them past 2000hz or so is of limited value to you (and vice-versa). Cf the standard deviation lines. In other words there's enough differences in people's ear anatomy that the effective FR curve at a point somewhere in one's ear canal varies by quite a lot past a few thousands hertz... but perhaps not enough to justify some truly awful FR curves on a test rig.
As far as headphones are concerned I increasingly pay less and less attention to subjective impressions indeed, particularly if they contain nebulous words with no operational definition like "resolution", "imaging", "grainy", "vibrant", "technicalities", etc. as they tend to be a very poor predictor of whether I'm going to enjoy a pair of headphones or not.

 

[SilverEars]

An argument could be made that any form of marketing is an association of sort (and you can rest assured that "audiophiles" are bombarded by marketing, albeit perhaps of a different kind, and frequently falling for it for reasons not too dissimilar to what you mentioned), but if we stick to celebrities :


It isn't that other brands aren't trying to do the same, it's just that they aren't as good at it .



It simply shows one of the several reasons why, provided a pair of headphones measure reasonably well, my subjective impressions of them past 2000hz or so is of limited value to you (and vice-versa). Cf the standard deviation lines. In other words there's enough differences in people's ear anatomy that the effective FR curve at a point somewhere in one's ear canal varies by quite a lot past a few thousands hertz... but perhaps not enough to justify some truly awful FR curves on a test rig.
As far as headphones are concerned I increasingly pay less and less attention to subjective impressions indeed, particularly if they contain nebulous words with no operational definition like "resolution", "imaging", "grainy", "vibrant", "technicalities", etc. as they tend to be a very poor predictor of whether I'm going to enjoy a pair of headphones or not.

Obviously, Beats marketing was much more effective interms of prevalence and results. I mean we saw it everywhere in all kinds of media with Beats.

Well, I'll determine if it's limited value. I'll hear people out first. We all have subjective impressions since we all are hearing it, and that's the practicality of headphones. I generally do not read formal reviews since I know it's not the same as hearing the headphone as the term usage are very relative. But, I do still communicate what I hear in the forums. I can get an idea by hearing the headphone, but I do use the language for communication, just like earlier on. That's how terms give rise in general.

 

[Author]

Once upon a time I worked for a very well known (if you know, you know) private airline. This private airline flies the wealthiest of the wealthiest around the world. Once upon a time, Warren Buffet handed me a Dilly Bar and said hello.

I can tell you I’ve spoken to *a lot* of wealthy and some famous people (and listened to the stories of “the help” that worked for them). Honestly, they can be really, really stupid. They fall for marketing and image just like anyone else.

I guarantee you they’re all over the APM because they don’t know any better. Especially the newer money. Plebeians one and all, I tell you.

I my APM.

 

[tinyman392]

An argument could be made that any form of marketing is an association of sort (and you can rest assured that "audiophiles" are bombarded by marketing, albeit perhaps of a different kind, and frequently falling for it for reasons not too dissimilar to what you mentioned), but if we stick to celebrities :


It isn't that other brands aren't trying to do the same, it's just that they aren't as good at it .



It simply shows one of the several reasons why, provided a pair of headphones measure reasonably well, my subjective impressions of them past 2000hz or so is of limited value to you (and vice-versa). Cf the standard deviation lines. In other words there's enough differences in people's ear anatomy that the effective FR curve at a point somewhere in one's ear canal varies by quite a lot past a few thousands hertz... but perhaps not enough to justify some truly awful FR curves on a test rig.
As far as headphones are concerned I increasingly pay less and less attention to subjective impressions indeed, particularly if they contain nebulous words with no operational definition like "resolution", "imaging", "grainy", "vibrant", "technicalities", etc. as they tend to be a very poor predictor of whether I'm going to enjoy a pair of headphones or not.

Are those the N90Q In the first picture? Those actually had an adaptive EQ feature That feature really interested me when it was released about 5 years ago.

As for operational definitions, there is a glossary of terms; I remember it was stickied in the portable headphones sub-forum.... So resolution would refer to minute detailing ability; imaging dealing with sound stage, instrument location, distance, etc.; grainy means not smooth though here users meant it to describe static-like sound. Vibrant I have no definition for, maybe could mean bright? Technicalities is the collection of all things sound I guess. A lot of the descriptive words actually have their focuses around certain frequency ranges. Though sometimes people do use terms in new ways too.

 

[tinyman392]

Ordering APM (again)
After using my newly arrived Schiit Loki on my HD800S, and discovering how wonderful an analog hardware-based EQ is, I discovered that even Loki’s magic couldn’t give me back the high quality of the APM sub-bass.

I looked at the frequency charts, saw that the APM are about 12 dB higher at 20 hz; I then adjusted the dial at 20 hz to push to +12 dB and....the HD800S did get boomier, but the sub bass capability just wasn’t the same.

I’ve even gone through a bunch of YouTube videos reviewing and comparing $1000+ headphones, planar magnetic and dynamic open backs, and I keep realizing no one does sub bass the way APM does.

So, for the relatively affordable $550 (in the audiophile world), I’m ordering a new green pair. While I wait for them to arrive in early March, I’m going to listen to the HD800S with my new Loki EQ settings.

I miss the signature sound of the APM too much to abandon. I’m currently looking at them as a good additional desk rig headphone, to complement my HD800S. Then they have a perk of ultra portability!

Who knows, maybe when I get them back I’ll return them again after further listening! Hah!

If you want them earlier, check Apple Store stocks for local pickup if you have any physical stores in your area. Stores routinely will get daily stock (that sells out pretty fast), so check throughout the day.

 

[Jackalton]

Once upon a time I worked for a very well known (if you know, you know) private airline. This private airline flies the wealthiest of the wealthiest around the world. Once upon a time, Warren Buffet handed me a Dilly Bar and said hello.

I can tell you I’ve spoken to *a lot* of wealthy and some famous people (and listened to the stories of “the help” that worked for them). Honestly, they can be really, really stupid. They fall for marketing and image just like anyone else.

I guarantee you they’re all over the APM because they don’t know any better. Especially the newer money. Plebeians one and all, I tell you.

I ❤ my APM.

Er... okay?

 

[archagon]

You described exactly what I am hearing. I don’t think the average consumer will care if they’ve not heard better sounding headphones though. I got the APM to actually test against the ATH DSR9BT, which is my benchmark for wireless headphones for sound quality. I really wanted to like these because I love them in all other aspects, build quality, functionality, and the quality of the NC and transparency mode. Unfortunately the sound is just not there. The DSR9BT sounds like a 500 dollar headphone. This one doesn’t.

A bit surprising to hear, because when I was trying to pick a BT headphone several years ago, the DSR7BT sounded really bad to my ears...

(Which is not to say that the DSR9BT can't sound miles better, but the DSR7BT basically made me lose all confidence in AT as a BT headphone manufacturer.)

 

[archagon]

Ordering APM (again)
After using my newly arrived Schiit Loki on my HD800S, and discovering how wonderful an analog hardware-based EQ is, I discovered that even Loki’s magic couldn’t give me back the high quality of the APM sub-bass.

I looked at the frequency charts, saw that the APM are about 12 dB higher at 20 hz; I then adjusted the dial at 20 hz to push to +12 dB and....the HD800S did get boomier, but the sub bass capability just wasn’t the same.

I’ve even gone through a bunch of YouTube videos reviewing and comparing $1000+ headphones, planar magnetic and dynamic open backs, and I keep realizing no one does sub bass the way APM does.

So, for the relatively affordable $550 (in the audiophile world), I’m ordering a new green pair. While I wait for them to arrive in early March, I’m going to listen to the HD800S with my new Loki EQ settings.

I miss the signature sound of the APM too much to abandon. I’m currently looking at them as a good additional desk rig headphone, to complement my HD800S. Then they have a perk of ultra portability!

Who knows, maybe when I get them back I’ll return them again after further listening! Hah!

Funny, this is very close to how I felt about the V-MODA Crossfade 2s. Nowhere close in terms of spatiality or detail to the HD800S I tried out in a Sennheiser store — and not even a great BT headphone to begin with due to hiss and low battery life — but that perfectly tuned bass made my favorite music come alive in a way no other headphone had before, no matter how I tweaked the EQ. (Electronic music, acoustic guitar stuff, etc.) Made me realize that I didn't actually want what I thought I wanted from a headphone. I'm really hoping that the APM has a similar tone.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Yeah, that seems about right. Keep in mind the APM don’t sound like 500 dollar headphones, I wasn’t expecting them to either. You have to pay for that ANC, transparency, and other stuff, so I was expecting them to be comparable to headphones ⅓ their price.

Who’s to say whether they “sound like a $500 headphone“ or not? Sometimes the sound signature alone can make them worth the price, and ironically enough the posts after this justify that observation.

 

[yticolev]

Who knows, maybe when I get them back I’ll return them again after further listening! Hah!

You are not making becoming an audio enthusiast sound fun. Lots of decision stress.