[SilverEars]

I have all three and they don't sound similar to either. APM has a grainy quality to the treble that I associate with cheaper headphones. HD650 has better tonality but sounds duller/more rolled off. Not even going to bother comparing the APM treble with the HD800S.

Yeah, that's what I hear of APM treble, grainy is the way to describe it. There's different interpretation of the word grainy based on people I've spoken to. Some people state grainy being like non-distinction or not so resolved or fuzzy. Others state grainy as texture grainy, but still not so sharp resolve, kinda like television noise and image behind it. With the rise of such treble of APM, and not so fine of a treble, I do hear it as the latter, the unrefined texture grainy. Which is the case in these class of headphones. I was hoping we can get past such type of sound, but APM is no different in this regard. I bet there will be people have no idea what I'm talking about. That's fine, this is just based on my experience with various gears tried.

 

[yticolev]

Now, I agree with you regarding some of Jony Ive’s interface decisions. I’ve had more than a few criticisms of some of the UI decisions since iOS 7, and I think Jony Ive wasn’t nearly as good a designer when it came to pixels on a screen as when it came to a physical object in your hands, but that’s a whole separate discussion.

hear hear. Good summary of my original post. There is no doubt Jony was an asset, but my complaints are only about UI really. And to the extent he was responsible for thin over functional physical design, additionally. Not sure if that was Jony, market research or other insiders. Maybe slender style is what sold iPhones and MacBooks, but I don't think so.

 

[controlmajortom]

Yeah, that's what I hear of APM treble, grainy is the way to describe it. There's different interpretation of the word grainy based on people I've spoken to. Some people state grainy being like non-distinction or not so resolved or fuzzy. Others state grainy as texture grainy, but still not so sharp resolve, kinda like television noise and image behind it. With the rise of such treble of APM, and not so fine of a treble, I do hear it as the latter, the unrefined texture grainy. Which is the case in these class of headphones. I was hoping we can get past such type of sound, but APM is no different in this regard. I bet there will be people have no idea what I'm talking about. That's fine, this is just based on my experience with various gears tried.

You described exactly what I am hearing. I don’t think the average consumer will care if they’ve not heard better sounding headphones though. I got the APM to actually test against the ATH DSR9BT, which is my benchmark for wireless headphones for sound quality. I really wanted to like these because I love them in all other aspects, build quality, functionality, and the quality of the NC and transparency mode. Unfortunately the sound is just not there. The DSR9BT sounds like a 500 dollar headphone. This one doesn’t.

 

[SilverEars]

You described exactly what I am hearing. I don’t think the average consumer will care if they’ve not heard better sounding headphones though. I got the APM to actually test against the ATH DSR9BT, which is my benchmark for wireless headphones for sound quality. I really wanted to like these because I love them in all other aspects, build quality, functionality, and the quality of the NC and transparency mode. Unfortunately the sound is just not there. The DSR9BT sounds like a 500 dollar headphone. This one doesn’t.

They will have no awareness what so ever. I will go as far as to say, a lot of them want the Apple look. If we look at Beats, it's about image and it's particular design associated with the life-style people that wears them, which is no different from apparel. And they enjoy music out of it, no matter how bloated the bass is. lol There's a general human nature thing about people enjoying things not for just for functionality or performance, but due to a branding or the looks. We can call it placebo or whatnot, but as quoted from the Matrix, "ignorance is bliss."

We're a certain part of the audio segment, not large like mainstream, so a segment of the market that Apple wouldn't be concerned with. They go for the big pie. Just as Bose did with their marketing.

 

[MayaTlab]

no matter how bloated the bass is.

*cough* hem *cough*
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/graph#799/4011/1626
Let's just say that it's quite a bit more complicated than that.

 

[SilverEars]

*cough* hem *cough*
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/graph#799/4011/1626
Let's just say that it's quite a bit more complicated than that.

I was meaning the older stuff (The stuff that has been marketed with celebrities with a certain look, when Beats marketing was at it's peak), but yes they've changed the tuning with recent stuff. After being bought out by Apple that there's been changes to the tuning of Beats as of recent. I've first noticed it with BeatsX.

 

[controlmajortom]

They will have no awareness what so ever. I will go as far as to say, a lot of them want the Apple look. If we look at Beats, it's about image and it's particular design associated with the life-style people that wears them, which is no different from apparel. And they enjoy music out of it, no matter how bloated the bass is. lol There's a general human nature thing about people enjoying things not for just for functionality or performance, but due to a branding or the looks. We can call it placebo or whatnot, but as quoted from the Matrix, "ignorance is bliss."

We're a certain part of the audio segment, not large like mainstream, so a segment of the market that Apple wouldn't be concerned with. They go for the big pie. Just as Bose did with their marketing.

I don't want to sound like I'm **** on them though, because as a package I think they're quite a compelling product. They are better than all the ANC headphones I've tried on the market, both in terms of sound and build quality. The features and convenience aspects are icing on the cake. Build quality is better than headphones twice their cost. I think these feel like a more expensive product than the HD800S...

And for their target market, I think it makes sense. Most people that are buying these are going to be using them as their primary headphones, and from that point of view I can justify spending the 200-300 dollar premium over their competition. They don't also have a pair of $2000 headphones around fighting for headspace. If Apple wanted to, I'm sure they could develop a nicer sounding headphone, charge twice as much and then market them towards the audiophile community, but that market is quite niche, and it just wouldn't make sense financially.

I'm returning my pair, but not because I think it's a bad product.

 

[MayaTlab]

I was meaning the older stuff (The stuff that has been marketed with celebrities with a certain look, when Beats marketing was at it's peak), but yes they've changed the tuning with recent stuff. After being bought out by Apple that there's been changes to the tuning of Beats as of recent. I've first noticed it with BeatsX.

Just as interesting in that graph is how the aforementioned ATH-DSR9BT measures. Not exactly anything to write home about (to put it kindly). Which is why I don't really understand the idea that there would be a schism between "the masses" and a supposedly elite group of "audiophiles" connoisseurs.

 

[Jackalton]

Just as interesting in that graph is how the aforementioned ATH-DSR9BT measures. Not exactly anything to write home about (to put it kindly). Which is why I don't really understand the idea that there would be a schism between "the masses" and a supposedly elite group of "audiophiles" connoisseurs.

This. So, so, sooooo this.

 

[Bytor123]

What happens to all these returned pairs?

 

[SilverEars]

Just as interesting in that graph is how the aforementioned ATH-DSR9BT measures. Not exactly anything to write home about (to put it kindly). Which is why I don't really understand the idea that there would be a schism between "the masses" and a supposedly elite group of "audiophiles" connoisseurs.

I don't really see how those measurements has anything to do with comments about grainy treble and about discussion about matketting. And I don't know what you mean about the schism. You are reading into comments that's not there.

Did you hear both and tell us how they compare and to APM?

 

[yticolev]

What happens to all these returned pairs?

They will become refurbished pairs, full warranty and AppleCare eligible for $100 less.

 

[MayaTlab]

And I don't know what you mean about the schism. You are reading into comments that's not there.

"I don’t think the average consumer will care if they’ve not heard better sounding headphones though"
"They will have no awareness what so ever. I will go as far as to say, a lot of them want the Apple look. If we look at Beats, it's about image and it's particular design associated with the life-style people that wears them, which is no different from apparel. And they enjoy music out of it, no matter how bloated the bass is. lol There's a general human nature thing about people enjoying things not for just for functionality or performance, but due to a branding or the looks. We can call it placebo or whatnot, but as quoted from the Matrix, "ignorance is bliss."

The above is the usual "us" vs. "them" narrative that is IMO way too prevalent on some "audiophiles" boards and serves no other purpose than to comfort some people in the pretension that they know better.
While, for some of them, listening to HPs that measure a lot worse than some pairs of Beats. The irony is that the phrase "There's a general human nature thing about people enjoying things not for just for functionality or performance, but due to a branding or the looks." could apply to so many of the headphones discussed in these boards.
if we want our discussions to focus on "functionality or performance" then it would be a good idea to stop being prejudiced about headphones on the basis of their brand, looks - or mass market appeal.

Did you hear both and tell us how they compare and to APM?

My own subjective impressions would be only of limited use to you anyway - particularly for anything trebles related :
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/airpods-max.949152/post-16064061

 

[Jackalton]

I don't really see how those measurements has anything to do with comments about grainy treble and about discussion about matketting. And I don't know what you mean about the schism. You are reading into comments that's not there.

Did you hear both and tell us how they compare and to APM?

Do you honestly not see that the notion of a schism could possibly come from this sort of elitist commentary?

"They will have no awareness what so ever. I will go as far as to say, a lot of them want the Apple look. If we look at Beats, it's about image and it's particular design associated with the life-style people that wears them, which is no different from apparel. And they enjoy music out of it, no matter how bloated the bass is. lol There's a general human nature thing about people enjoying things not for just for functionality or performance, but due to a branding or the looks. We can call it placebo or whatnot, but as quoted from the Matrix, "ignorance is bliss."

 

[clerkpalmer]

I’m surprised no one has directly compared the APM with the Hifiman Deva.

Deva is a really nice headphone that happens to offer Bluetooth. It is open backed and no ANC. Not an apples to apples comparison. I had a deva before Ananda. Over Bluetooth it lacks some bass. Better wired in this regard. Probably the best deal going in audio for 300 just needs a little more bass. Probably not a lot of cross shopping going on. Panda is probably a better comparison since they are closed back.