[striker]

Where is this stated. It's likely that they used pink noise to adjust and tune their Active EQ stuff during R&D. However, you typically don't use this while measuring headphones as a frequency sweep is used.

Footnote 1 here.

It's likely that they used pink noise to adjust and tune their Active EQ stuff during R&D. However, you typically don't use this while measuring headphones as a frequency sweep is used.

But they aren't typical headphones.
Maybe sending a simple sine sweep doesn't activate the adaptive system of the APM.
Maybe the sweep that reaches the listener's ears from a "cold start" is different from the sweep that reaches those ears a fraction of a second after the adaptive system was properly initialized and was doing its thing.
Sounds plausible to me.

 

[dleblanc343]

Had some alone time in an empty Apple store with the APM last week, but have only posted impressions in my personal Hi-Fi circle - but figured I can share.

These are amazing as a consumer audio product, I’ll probably buy one once they have stock.

Sound - 9/10.

As a Hi-Fi product:

Sound -7.5/10

They’re slightly under the HD6XX potential, therefore benchmarking this comparable to 200$ headphones

Now the hot take for me, and adding to a lot of discussion regarding the APP - The Airpods Pro is a more Hi-Fi tuned, and impressive product.

APP is straight up a bargain for its SQ and functionalities, and compares to iem’s above its price point in many cases.

I’d give them a 10/10 for consumer sound, and a 9/10 for Hi-Fi given their pricepoint.

Benchmarking these to 200$ audiophile products, which is a much better value proposition.

Takeaways:
- APP is tuned quite a bit better, whereas APM goes for fun
- APP has better noise canceling
- APP has better coherence with Spatial Audio
- APM looks and feels more premium
- APM will impress more to the general user and probably 80% of Head-Fiers, for its more musical and punchy aptitudes, even if it lacks the finesse of the in-ear counterpart

 

[tinyman392]

Footnote 1 here.


But they aren't typical headphones.
Maybe sending a simple sine sweep doesn't activate the adaptive system of the APM.
Maybe the sweep that reaches the listener's ears from a "cold start" is different from the sweep that reaches those ears a fraction of a second after the adaptive system was properly initialized and was doing its thing.
Sounds plausible to me.

This is in response to total harmonic distortion. Crinicle didn't measure this anyways. That said, 1% across the range really isn't supper impressive unless that 1% was in the bass and the rest of the range was at 0.1% or something. This has nothing to do with the adaptive EQ. They played pink noise after placing the headphones onto the dummy model while ANC was turned on then played a sine wave sweep.

 

[striker]

This is in response to total harmonic distortion. Crinicle didn't measure this anyways. That said, 1% across the range really isn't supper impressive unless that 1% was in the bass and the rest of the range was at 0.1% or something. This has nothing to do with the adaptive EQ. They played pink noise after placing the headphones onto the dummy model while ANC was turned on then played a sine wave sweep.

It's irrelevant what test it is applied to... If Apple makes a measurement (any measurement) "After playing pink noise to initialize the adaptive system", I'd say any amateur test should be started in the same way. They obviously know what they're doing much better than you, me or any amateur tester.

The comment about how impressive the THD is, is completely besides my point.

 

[tinyman392]

It's irrelevant what test it is applied to... If Apple makes a measurement (any measurement) "After playing pink noise to initialize the adaptive system", I'd say any amateur test should be started in the same way. They obviously know what they're doing much better than you, me or any amateur tester.

The comment about how impressive the THD is, is completely besides my point.

I wouldn't call Crinacle an amateur (I actually did measure IEMs for about 4 years as well when I was doing headphone reviews back in the day). He was also measuring something else. We also don't know why the pink noise was played. It could easily just be a control to make sure the mics are working (dummy head mic).

 

[striker]

We also don't know why the pink noise was played. It could easily just be a control to make sure the mics are working (dummy head mic).

We know, Apple says so: "to initialize the adaptive system". Seems clear to me.

 

[Trager]

Well APM are polarizing indeed
I don't get how tense discussions get but it was bound to end up like this...

I do enjoy them even if I have much more higher end stuff at hand, it's highly convenient for movies and shows with great ANC and it's way better for music than my Sony WH1000 XM3. Yeah it's more expensive but it's justified by a more balanced and mature tuning, last but not least build is nowhere near the same league, although the APM is a bit too heavy for my taste).

This pretty much sums up my feelings exactly. I bought them honestly expecting that I wouldn’t like the tuning enough to want to keep them, but I find them enjoyable for listening to background music (like when I’m working) and very convenient. The weight doesn’t bother me, and wireless is really good for when I’m getting stuff done in my home office.

 

[tinyman392]

We know, Apple says so: "to initialize the adaptive system". Seems clear to me.

You should reread that footnote. Does not contain the word "adaptive" in it (quoted below). We don't know what system they were initializing. It's not as clear as it would seem. Like I said, it could easily be the equivalent of a mic check and to make sure that the mics can also pick up noise and go to silence (IE no leaks or random resonances).

AirPods Max placed on B&K Type 5128-C High-frequency Head and Torso Simulator (HATS). Volume was set to 100 percent with Active Noise Cancellation on. After playing pink noise to initialise the system, a 20Hz to 20kHz, -3dBFS peak, 1/12th octave stepped sine tone sweep was played and recorded on HATS.

Edit: also note that Apple never calls Adaptive EQ the adaptive system. It's also typically capitalized to be a proper noun as it's the name of something.

 

[Ilomaenkimi]

I would like to see measurements with ANC on and ANC off.
Very interested of soundquality without ANC.
APP sounds better without ANC, wonder how it is with APM?
With APP Adaptive eq is turned off when ANC is off. Is it same case with APM?

 

[spinspin]

It is very interesting being interested in headphones at this present time (the past few months) and also being here for the release of the APM.

I think Apple has a very very strong brand, possibly the strongest brand ever. I am trying to rack my brains to think of another brand that has as many people aligned with their brand and the degree of alliance. Not that I have been here scouring the head forums for years, but can anyone think of a product or brand that has been defended or been rationalised as strongly as this?

 

[striker]

You should reread that footnote. Does not contain the word "adaptive" in it (quoted below). We don't know what system they were initializing. It's not as clear as it would seem. Like I said, it could easily be the equivalent of a mic check and to make sure that the mics can also pick up noise and go to silence (IE no leaks or random resonances).

The footnote seems to have been changed.
When I had read it, closer to launch, it mentioned "to initialize the adaptive system". Here's the press release as it was reported on December 8th by Bloomberg.
https://www.bloomberg.com/press-rel...agic-of-airpods-in-a-stunning-over-ear-design

But seeing that it was corrected by Apple, I take back my assumptions.

 

[alexlevn0791]

Does anybody know if sound quality on the airpod max will only be optimized on IOS? What about for Android users?

 

[tinyman392]

The footnote seems to have been changed.
When I had read it, closer to launch, it mentioned "to initialize the adaptive system". Here's the press release as it was reported on December 8th by Bloomberg.
https://www.bloomberg.com/press-rel...agic-of-airpods-in-a-stunning-over-ear-design

But seeing that it was corrected by Apple, I take back my assumptions.

That’s actually somewhat interesting that happened. Guess a mistake slipped through the cracks I guess.

Does anybody know if sound quality on the airpod max will only be optimized on IOS? What about for Android users?

The AirPods Max only support the SBC and AAC codecs. There are some Android phones that support an AAC codec. How good these codecs are are kind of unknown. Also note that if you’re source material isn’t AAC it’ll need to go through a lossy conversion. If you have lossless audio this conversion won’t be an issue. But if you’re listening to 320 MPG on Spotify it might be. It’s probably not super noticeable though.

 

[pnoble]

Guys,

I've been ploughing through this thread and have some thoughts:

1. Firstly a shoutout to tkddans who gave us his painstakingly detailed personal listening comparison between the HD 800S and APM. And to those others who have shared their necessarily subjective listening comparisons with the HD 800S, HD95, etc.
2. The fact that the APM may be close in audio quality to the HD 800S, and in some respects easier to listen to, is surely a testament to the APM, considering that HD 800S/Schiit setup is > 3X the cost of the APM, and considering also the vast range of other benefits (for those that value them): from portability to ACN to spatial audio to beautiful integration with Apple devices, not to mention the aesthetics for those they appeal to.
3. Fact is: these are entirely different product categories, entirely different markets and entirely different companies. Some overlap in the first two categories? Of course. And this in no way invalidates the audio quality comparison.
4. Different product categories: wired, open, bespoke, high-end audiophile kit v. an Apple-level volume market BT closed ACN headset.
5. Different markets: this thread testifies to the Venn overlap, but, without having any inside knowledge, let me suggest that since Apple is thought to have sold an estimated 60 million Airpods in 2019 (i.e. in the range of $12 billion of just Airpods), they are targeting to sell many millions of APM at $545 and its anticipated, lower cost sports version. Rumors suggest $329.
6. Different companies: Sennheisser is a fine 75 year old company with an almost unparalleled reputation for many decades of consistent sonic excellence in both the consumer and commercial space. Their total revenues (2019) are approx. $920MM. I would be surprised if their audiophile headphones sell more than in the tens of thousands in aggregate. Apple did around 13 times more in just AirPod revenues than Sennheisser did as a total company across all their product lines and divisions last year. (They don't publish category revenue share). They spend approx. $70MM total in R&D. Apple spent approx. $19 billion on R&D last fiscal year. If they spent it on AirPod headphone development (I'm leaving out Beats here) according to revenue percentage (total $249 billion), they would have spent over $800MM on AirPods R&D, but since it is a new and fast growing product category for them, I'm guessing it was more. $1 billion or more. Just on headphone development.
7. So what is my point? It is this: the future of audio and the future of imaging is significantly 'computational'. And computational takes incredible resources. Apple is uniquely positioned in this respect, increasingly owning and controlling their entire technology stack, down to the core silicon. They also 'own' the premium end of the consumer market globally, to the tune of over 1 billion of the most affluent and the most aspirational customers. And it can amortize its incredible R&D costs over its incredible sales volume and still be highly profitable. It has unparalleled scale.
8. Does this mean that bespoke brands will cease to exist? Not in the short term, but I'd guess that they are vulnerable where they compete on the edge of mass, typically consumer markets; less so, in Sennheisser's case, for example, in niche professional/commercial/industrial markets that probably represent a significant share of their total revenues. A couple of other observations:
9. Computational allows for improvements in existing products. I'd be surprised if Apple doesn't announce firmware updates to the APM in the future that enhance its sound quality and maybe offer more customization.
10. I would not discount the social signifier aspects of the APM. A surprising percentage of business class passengers, pre-Covid, I observed, who used to typically sport Rolex watches had shifted to Apple watches, especially women. I'm willing to bet that APMs will become de rigeur for front-of-the-bus air travel. At the aspirational end of the market, I'd be surprised if APMs don't also become a core component of street fashion replacing Beats and at a higher price point.

Nothing said here is intended to criticize the audiophile/enthusiast headphone market in any way.

Paul

PS: the photography market is somewhat though not entirely analogous, (substitute Leica for Sennheisser and compare, dare I say, with the camera in an iPhone 12 Pro Max for most use/view cases), but this is an audio forum.

PPS: I am writing this at my desk with AirPods on each side of my MacBook (approx 1 meter apart) listening to Sonny Rollins Way Out West (recorded in 1957, re-mastered in 2010). I'm alternating with the APM. Another significant Apple achievement in computational sound. Breathtaking to my ears. Starting with the incredibly authoritative bass, not to mention the live sax. And you can pick up a pair for under $600. BTW, the desk is made of metal which might improve the resonance.

 

[Ilomaenkimi]

That’s actually somewhat interesting that happened. Guess a mistake slipped through the cracks I guess.



The AirPods Max only support the SBC and AAC codecs. There are some Android phones that support an AAC codec. How good these codecs are are kind of unknown. Also note that if you’re source material isn’t AAC it’ll need to go through a lossy conversion. If you have lossless audio this conversion won’t be an issue. But if you’re listening to 320 MPG on Spotify it might be. It’s probably not super noticeable though.

To my ears with APP+iPhone Apple Music 256 AAC sounds "clearly" better than 320 Spotify.