tkddans
500+ Head-Fier
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Tune in for a headphone critic discussion about the APM. Happening now!
EDIT: Notes on discussion...
Crinacle:
Also has a full review here... Crinacle Written APM Review
- APM tuned great, especially considering expecting old beats level of bass. Technicality is in the middle of the grand scheme of things
- Ultimate problem is price of $550; not competitive. Closest competition is Sony and Bose, but double.
- DSP is the future; even speakers have DSP now. I don't think there should be a stigma around it. I understand you can't use DSP to solve all problems, but at the same time not everything needs to be fixed from the housing itself. Sometimes you an adjust EQ to fix better than you would with [hardware]
- I don't think the adaptive EQ succeeds completely; there will be a break in seal [and other problems to overcome]
- I don't think it's that blunted. I've definitely heard more blunted. I've found the Drop Panda's more blunted. In terms of the AirPods Max, it is not very detailed, but at the same time I wouldn't call it detailess.
- Resolution of the mid would be the weakest point. The treble would be second. The vocals [....] where I would expect the breathiness, it is...a lot of the detail still don't pop up. This is already giving it an already good benchmark. Let's say you give it an orchestral track, I wouldn't say it falls apart, but it definitely struggles - especially if you put it up against the HD 560 S. Next to the AirPods max, it's not even a competition.
- I would put the sony at the bottom for technicality
- Bose would be an interesting comparison. Maybe it would be on the same level (the 700); the APM are much better tuned though than the 700
- I would still prefer the APM because I'm a sub bass boy
- I think none of them are worth their price
- I took a one hour bus ride, with the APM, I was just done. I never wanted to use them again. They're heavy. The mesh hand band is not very grippy. It slides along my head. It's even worse because they're so heavy. I had to readjust the headphones constantly. Even the tiniest move of my neck caused a break seal.
- My concern [with ANC] is more that if you are in a loud environment, the ANC starts to fritz out. It's something I would expect for $100 ANC, but for $550, I can't forgive it. [...] At the end of my bus ride, I said never again.
- The ANC for low attenuation is good, but it is inconsistent
- [with spatial audio] I finally hear a surround sound. It sounds like it comes from the back..when you move your head..
- [speaking of the question regarding market positioning] You would have die-hard fans who would say the products are best in the industry because it is Apple. You see this with iPhone, MacBook, iMac, Mac Pro, the Apple TV. Literally anything Apple has done. There will be diehard fans.
- Most our gripes are with the price. If they were APP price, you know, $250, there is so much about the APM that are so similar - with the way it connects with the apple device. They both have ANC and connect to iOS. That's their similarities and that's where it ends. For $300, you can't argue it. The APP, I will argue, are better sounding in more regards. it doesn't present anything different that can justify the price. That's the biggest problem I have of it.
- The main thing people are busting my balls over, is that I bashed the imaging performance. The main defense for [it actually being true] is because apple said so, because [marketing]
- They sound like a closed back headphone.
- DMS said the soundstage and imaging are actually pretty bad?
Headphone Show:
- In any review, there's bound to be comparisons
- I'm in inclined to agree with [Crinacle's] opinion on tuning
- Acoustic challenges with these headphones are being solved with electronics [DSP]. You can tell this is happening with these as well.
- The adaptive EQ feature makes it so, regardless of the coupling, you will get a response targeted
- In my opinion, this tuning is in some ways essential for this kind of device. Especially for the bass, it was a requirement to make it fit, not just for the audience, but for this device. The upward kind of tilt for the sub-base is kind of essential. Linear sound with low res headphones is boring. Linear sound with high technicality is great. I think they nailed it with the tuning. Close enough, especially with the vocals.
- One of the things I notice the more I listen...you've often described headphones lack of detail or technical capability as blunted, and I'm going to shamelessly steal this description. That's the best description yet for these headphones. I wonder if this is due in part due to the computation or artificial dampening used to get the response for these headphones.
- For me it's not surprising (in response to Crinacle comparing to 560 S), considering the features it comes with.
- For instrument separation [...] thats the biggest weakness in the APM; the tuning is ok
- For technicality, I put it above the qc35
- The sony is garbage
- The upper mids on the Bose 700 are real weird; but the benefit is that it has ear gain more than the Max
- There's a gentle downward slope on the bass; that's the smartest thing they did; that's the way to do it
- That's what's so ridiculous about the xm4. You can use the EQ with the app [...] it's great that it retains the profile among devices, but the downside is that you can't reduce the bass shelf around 200-300 hz. That is the biggest bummer with the xm4
- As you're saying, if sound quality is your priority, none of these are your thing
- As far as use case is concerned, I'm confused, apart from [apple users]. It's not really that comfortable. On long plane rides, I don't know if I would be able to have them for that long.
- The thing that doesnt make much sense for me is that the ANC isn't consistent. When I go outside and walk around and change the environment, it's almost like there's a catch up. It has to catch up with the environment. I don't know if it's a firmware update or...
- For low hums like airplanes, I don't know why I wouldn't use IEM's. I love the APP.
- I think for the amount of stuff that attenuates in the right conditions, I think it competes for the best ANC out there; but I would put it behind the Bose 700 [for all situations]
- This is a deal for watching movies on a plane, but who is doing that now [referencing corona and no one traveling]
- What do you think about spatial audio? [talking to Crinacle]
- It turned movies into binaural audio, for me.
- [Speaking to Crinacle] One of the things I liked about your review is that you evaluated it as a headphones device [as opposed to just an apple user or tech rich device].
- What do you think about the idea of the way this product is positioned in the market for people who may not be knoweldgabel about the high end stuff?
- There's nothing for the prosumer that [makes these worth it]; there are other headphones better for the prosumer, even within the Apple ecosystem. It's not really better than anything else that are way less expensive.
- I am disappointed...with this price tag and the fact that this is an Apple device, there was a hope that this would take steps toward wired closed back. I was thinking "ok they knocked it out of the park with the APP. What can they do with over ear headphones at a higher price point? [...] Can they do what no other ANC has been able to do?" I think the answer to that is no.
- When evaluating something like this for its merits and [trying not to be unbiased], you're bound to still have the staunch defenders on something. You said it was pretty good right? You gave it a B- right? That's not that bad.
- I'm not bothered by the soundstage, but it's not the greatest thing ever.
- The vocal range preset is the most balanced. If apple says the balanced preset is the most balanced, they are wrong.
- There is something MKHD said that really bothered me; he said for people streaming from Spotify, something like the APM is capping out what the streaming services can offer in terms of bitrate and all that stuff. That's just false. I don't like the suggestion that we are limited by the streaming services, so something like [the APM is fine, because it maxes out at what the streaming offers]; 320 is not the bottleneck he made it seem. Now there's all these people who think there's not all that distance between what I listen to and the high end stuff "so why would I care."
- Recording quality often is more important than the difference between 256 and 320.
- When you measure it on the rig, the clamp force [interacts with] the seal [...] and the results. They won't be representative of the clamp force and results of the head. For that reason, I found it nearly impossible to measure the presets.
- It's not clear if the presets apply to all media playback.
Tyler Manuel:
- If [DSP is done for you]
- I’m actually very excited to try the Max... the AirPods Pro are pretty awesome but kill my ears after an hour
- Spatial audio is pretty amazing from what I’ve heard
- Yea [I love the APP too]
- I have the AirPod Pros, I think Resolve would pick the Bose 700 or XM4 maybe? Crin not sure but probably an IEM with good isolation
EDIT: Notes on discussion...
Crinacle:
Also has a full review here... Crinacle Written APM Review
- APM tuned great, especially considering expecting old beats level of bass. Technicality is in the middle of the grand scheme of things
- Ultimate problem is price of $550; not competitive. Closest competition is Sony and Bose, but double.
- DSP is the future; even speakers have DSP now. I don't think there should be a stigma around it. I understand you can't use DSP to solve all problems, but at the same time not everything needs to be fixed from the housing itself. Sometimes you an adjust EQ to fix better than you would with [hardware]
- I don't think the adaptive EQ succeeds completely; there will be a break in seal [and other problems to overcome]
- I don't think it's that blunted. I've definitely heard more blunted. I've found the Drop Panda's more blunted. In terms of the AirPods Max, it is not very detailed, but at the same time I wouldn't call it detailess.
- Resolution of the mid would be the weakest point. The treble would be second. The vocals [....] where I would expect the breathiness, it is...a lot of the detail still don't pop up. This is already giving it an already good benchmark. Let's say you give it an orchestral track, I wouldn't say it falls apart, but it definitely struggles - especially if you put it up against the HD 560 S. Next to the AirPods max, it's not even a competition.
- I would put the sony at the bottom for technicality
- Bose would be an interesting comparison. Maybe it would be on the same level (the 700); the APM are much better tuned though than the 700
- I would still prefer the APM because I'm a sub bass boy
- I think none of them are worth their price
- I took a one hour bus ride, with the APM, I was just done. I never wanted to use them again. They're heavy. The mesh hand band is not very grippy. It slides along my head. It's even worse because they're so heavy. I had to readjust the headphones constantly. Even the tiniest move of my neck caused a break seal.
- My concern [with ANC] is more that if you are in a loud environment, the ANC starts to fritz out. It's something I would expect for $100 ANC, but for $550, I can't forgive it. [...] At the end of my bus ride, I said never again.
- The ANC for low attenuation is good, but it is inconsistent
- [with spatial audio] I finally hear a surround sound. It sounds like it comes from the back..when you move your head..
- [speaking of the question regarding market positioning] You would have die-hard fans who would say the products are best in the industry because it is Apple. You see this with iPhone, MacBook, iMac, Mac Pro, the Apple TV. Literally anything Apple has done. There will be diehard fans.
- Most our gripes are with the price. If they were APP price, you know, $250, there is so much about the APM that are so similar - with the way it connects with the apple device. They both have ANC and connect to iOS. That's their similarities and that's where it ends. For $300, you can't argue it. The APP, I will argue, are better sounding in more regards. it doesn't present anything different that can justify the price. That's the biggest problem I have of it.
- The main thing people are busting my balls over, is that I bashed the imaging performance. The main defense for [it actually being true] is because apple said so, because [marketing]
- They sound like a closed back headphone.
- DMS said the soundstage and imaging are actually pretty bad?
Headphone Show:
- In any review, there's bound to be comparisons
- I'm in inclined to agree with [Crinacle's] opinion on tuning
- Acoustic challenges with these headphones are being solved with electronics [DSP]. You can tell this is happening with these as well.
- The adaptive EQ feature makes it so, regardless of the coupling, you will get a response targeted
- In my opinion, this tuning is in some ways essential for this kind of device. Especially for the bass, it was a requirement to make it fit, not just for the audience, but for this device. The upward kind of tilt for the sub-base is kind of essential. Linear sound with low res headphones is boring. Linear sound with high technicality is great. I think they nailed it with the tuning. Close enough, especially with the vocals.
- One of the things I notice the more I listen...you've often described headphones lack of detail or technical capability as blunted, and I'm going to shamelessly steal this description. That's the best description yet for these headphones. I wonder if this is due in part due to the computation or artificial dampening used to get the response for these headphones.
- For me it's not surprising (in response to Crinacle comparing to 560 S), considering the features it comes with.
- For instrument separation [...] thats the biggest weakness in the APM; the tuning is ok
- For technicality, I put it above the qc35
- The sony is garbage
- The upper mids on the Bose 700 are real weird; but the benefit is that it has ear gain more than the Max
- There's a gentle downward slope on the bass; that's the smartest thing they did; that's the way to do it
- That's what's so ridiculous about the xm4. You can use the EQ with the app [...] it's great that it retains the profile among devices, but the downside is that you can't reduce the bass shelf around 200-300 hz. That is the biggest bummer with the xm4
- As you're saying, if sound quality is your priority, none of these are your thing
- As far as use case is concerned, I'm confused, apart from [apple users]. It's not really that comfortable. On long plane rides, I don't know if I would be able to have them for that long.
- The thing that doesnt make much sense for me is that the ANC isn't consistent. When I go outside and walk around and change the environment, it's almost like there's a catch up. It has to catch up with the environment. I don't know if it's a firmware update or...
- For low hums like airplanes, I don't know why I wouldn't use IEM's. I love the APP.
- I think for the amount of stuff that attenuates in the right conditions, I think it competes for the best ANC out there; but I would put it behind the Bose 700 [for all situations]
- This is a deal for watching movies on a plane, but who is doing that now [referencing corona and no one traveling]
- What do you think about spatial audio? [talking to Crinacle]
- It turned movies into binaural audio, for me.
- [Speaking to Crinacle] One of the things I liked about your review is that you evaluated it as a headphones device [as opposed to just an apple user or tech rich device].
- What do you think about the idea of the way this product is positioned in the market for people who may not be knoweldgabel about the high end stuff?
- There's nothing for the prosumer that [makes these worth it]; there are other headphones better for the prosumer, even within the Apple ecosystem. It's not really better than anything else that are way less expensive.
- I am disappointed...with this price tag and the fact that this is an Apple device, there was a hope that this would take steps toward wired closed back. I was thinking "ok they knocked it out of the park with the APP. What can they do with over ear headphones at a higher price point? [...] Can they do what no other ANC has been able to do?" I think the answer to that is no.
- When evaluating something like this for its merits and [trying not to be unbiased], you're bound to still have the staunch defenders on something. You said it was pretty good right? You gave it a B- right? That's not that bad.
- I'm not bothered by the soundstage, but it's not the greatest thing ever.
- The vocal range preset is the most balanced. If apple says the balanced preset is the most balanced, they are wrong.
- There is something MKHD said that really bothered me; he said for people streaming from Spotify, something like the APM is capping out what the streaming services can offer in terms of bitrate and all that stuff. That's just false. I don't like the suggestion that we are limited by the streaming services, so something like [the APM is fine, because it maxes out at what the streaming offers]; 320 is not the bottleneck he made it seem. Now there's all these people who think there's not all that distance between what I listen to and the high end stuff "so why would I care."
- Recording quality often is more important than the difference between 256 and 320.
- When you measure it on the rig, the clamp force [interacts with] the seal [...] and the results. They won't be representative of the clamp force and results of the head. For that reason, I found it nearly impossible to measure the presets.
- It's not clear if the presets apply to all media playback.
Tyler Manuel:
- If [DSP is done for you]
- I’m actually very excited to try the Max... the AirPods Pro are pretty awesome but kill my ears after an hour
- Spatial audio is pretty amazing from what I’ve heard
- Yea [I love the APP too]
- I have the AirPod Pros, I think Resolve would pick the Bose 700 or XM4 maybe? Crin not sure but probably an IEM with good isolation
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