[torifile]

While I haven't heard the Max, I am calling bs on any notion that they sound better than an LCD2c based on any objective criteria. Strikes me as shiny new toy syndrome. It's clear this is a nice product and a step or two above the current ANC offerings but I really think the exuberance needs to be tamed. There is no passive mode and BT is capped at lossy AAC files where the competition offers LDAC and AptxHD.

Once the newness wears off, I think there are going to be a ton of people unloading these realizing that they can get 90 percent of the performance for 60 percent of the price or going the other way can get a superb desktop setup for 125 percent of the price. This is a niche product for ios users who apparently like to watch movies while using headphones. This thread has me intrigued enough that I feel the need to try them but I will be shocked if they come anywhere near my Ananda (cost me 500) let alone my Panda (cost me 300). If they do I'll come back here and eat crow.

I'd withhold judgement til you have a chance to hear them. I will say that they are approximately 1000% better than the Ananda on build quality. Those things are the epitome of cheap Chinese crap build quality-wise. They sounded great but are awfully built.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Sorry but no. Just no. They are too expensive for that and they are not ideal for Android and half the world runs android. They will not "outsell any headphones in the world". Please stop. This is the precise shiny new toy syndrome I was commenting on. You can say the are excellent and will be a big hit. But the hyperbole is ridiculous.

They can and will outsell other ANC headphones once Apple releases the $349 fitness-oriented AirPods Max that was rumored to be in development with less premium materials.

Although I’m not as sure Apple is still willing to compromise on the design in order to release a more affordable version.

 

[plakat]

The AirPods Max cannot be passively driven, so you cannot test the driver. The analog input is digitized and goes to the internal DSP and DAC. There's no interaction between the source amp and the driver.

Thats how I see this as well.

This would be interesting to know how the conversion happens from the analog feed to the digital section of the APM and how conversion happens and which bitrate are supported (I don't think it happens in the cable given how compact the lighning connector is I don't see a dac being in there but maybe I am wrong). Maybe there is a dev tool somewhere to check the raw data.

Most definitely the analog signal matters has gain changes mean it get louder with better dynamics. Also you can apply EQ in your DAP and it does affect the end result.

Most definitely one thing you overlook there is higher bitrate might be supported wired vs BT (given how Apple is behind in terms of BT codecs supporting hires and higher bitrates) especially since I am using either DSD or Tidal Master tracks. Even if you don't enjoy the full bitrate it's probably a better signal than the BT signal.

I'd not say Apple is somehow behind on codecs, its a deliberate decision on their part. An unfortunate one for those using Android, sure. But otherwise I think AAC is a very good option, with an excellent balance between connection stability (not a strong point with either aptX or LDAC) and sound quality (which I consider better than with aptX or aptX HD).

Applying EQ to a signal that is later going through ADC obviously changes the end result, the ADC does not undo upstream sound processing.

Regarding size: the adapters for the other direction seem to contain electronics according to iFixit ( see https://de.ifixit.com/News/8448/apple-audio-adapter-teardown ), so I'd not rule that out for the 3.5mm -> Lightning adapter.

As I said earlier the tw odiferous paths into the APM may result in slightly different sound, but I'd not expect Apple to do anything high-res (they don't support that on their iPhones, so why would they here?).

 

[Monstieur]

This would be interesting to know how the conversion happens from the analog feed to the digital section of the APM and how conversion happens and which bitrate are supported (I don't think it happens in the cable given how compact the lighning connector is I don't see a dac being in there but maybe I am wrong). Maybe there is a dev tool somewhere to check the raw data.

Most definitely the analog signal matters as gain changes mean it get louder with better dynamics. Also you can apply EQ in your DAP and it does affect the end result.

Most definitely one thing you overlook there is higher bitrate might be supported wired vs BT (given how Apple is behind in terms of BT codecs supporting hires and higher bitrates). Even if you don't enjoy the full bitrate it's probably a better signal than the BT signal. We don't know the supported bitrate by the H1 chip do we? I didn't find a teardown yet https://fr.ifixit.com/Device/AirPods_Max

The ADC is likely in the cable, as the Lightning port has no analog pins. The cable is bidirectional and is detected as a Lightning to 3.5 mm DAC if plugged into an iOS device. The output characteristics of the Lightning Audio Module are top of the line as previously measured. Presumably the input is of similar quality.

Such an input has high impedance (> 10,000 ohms) and the source amp has almost zero effect on it. The concept of bit rate is not applicable here. An ADC sampling at 48 kHz completely captures the analog waveform up to 24 kHz. The Lightning Audio Module supports up to 48 kHz sampling, which is well beyond the limits of human hearing.

"Dynamics" is a function of the driver's variable impedance vs frequency. A high impedance line input behaves like a purely resistive load because of the high damping factor - the waveform doesn't change with gain. You can only maximize the SNR by adjusting the gain such that the signal is just below the ~2 V clipping point of the input.

The H1 chip doesn't "support" any particular bit rate. The bit rate is already set (~250 kb/s) at the source when the output is transcoded to AAC. It's impossible to decode it at a lower bit rate in the receiver.

 

[kdphan]

I'm on day 3 of the APM now.
Still as impressed as the first day I picked it up.
I've been switching between my IEMs, ZMF Verite and the APM.
It's not quite there compared to a full desktop setup and Verite.
I wanted something for my work desk and w/o all the clutter. APM fits this criteria. While it doesn't sound up to par with my desktop setup, I wasn't expecting it to. But it is quite enjoyable.

It's strange why apple has a backlog of 3 months for these. Perhaps, they weren't expecting it to sell like hotcakes.

My final verdict is that I'm keeping them since I stand at my desk and walk around my office all day long. Have wires would be really inconvenient. And they sound great.

 

[clerkpalmer]

They can and will outsell other ANC headphones once Apple releases the $349 fitness-oriented AirPods Max that was rumored to be in development with less premium materials.

Although I’m not as sure Apple is still willing to compromise on the design in order to release a more affordable version.

That's an entirely different discussion. The argument was the Max will be the world's best selling headphone - that's not going to happen because $550 is too much for the average consumer to spend on any headphones. I think they absolutely will release a cheaper option. Where there are profits to be made, Apple will build them.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Tell you what, APM will outsell any headphones in the world very soon. I don’t think there is a lot of competition(Bose & Sony) but even if it’s there, Apple will up the game so high that everyone will just give up. Just my opinion, someone may differ.

I’m actually not sure this opinion is too far off.

Even if AirPods Max isn’t the headphone to do it, Apple could release a high-end headphone in the future marketed specifically at audiophiles along with true lossless codec support and best-in-class audio. There’s no reason their audio team couldn’t release a product that’s objectively better than everything else on the market. Pair that with a cheaper AirPods Max, and Apple could dominate the over-ear headphone industry. That thought alone should be enough to keep every other headphone manufacturer up at night.

I know if I was looking at purchasing new headphones today the first headphone I would consider is the AirPods Max, which is saying a lot considering that the LCD-2 and countless other high-end headphones can be purchased in that price range. Apple also isn’t a stranger to high-end audio, since they have carried the Audeze Sine ($499), EL-8 Titanium ($799), and iSine10 ($399) both online and in their retail stores.

 

[Duncan]

The APM is already 3 months backordered, anybody who doesn’t think this thing is going sell like hotcakes (even at its price point) is in denial. It’s easily going to be the biggest selling headphone in the coming months.

Strangely enough, I commented on the head-Fi Facebook thread about the APM saying that I nearly bought a pair from a bricks and mortar store (via the Apple Store app) but they then sold out whilst in my basket / went back order - yet I went into an Apple store to sort out an iPhone 12 Pro Max only to find they had plenty in stock (except slate grey) - could be that Apple are doing odd things with their inventory to drive interest, or maybe they’re being delivered constantly and that 12-14 weeks is a worst case scenario?!

 

[kdphan]

Strangely enough, I commented on the head-Fi Facebook thread about the APM saying that I nearly bought a pair from a bricks and mortar store (via the Apple Store app) but they then sold out whilst in my basket / went back order - yet I went into an Apple store to sort out an iPhone 12 Pro Max only to find they had plenty in stock (except slate grey) - could be that Apple are doing odd things with their inventory to drive interest, or maybe they’re being delivered constantly and that 12-14 weeks is a worst case scenario?!

Apple usually have some in stock at their physical stores for walk-ins. Some are allotted to online orders.

 

[Duncan]

Apple usually have some in stock at their physical stores for walk-ins. Some are allotted to online orders.

Fair point - guess I just got lucky - just looked after my previous post and all colours are unavailable in my 12 nearest stores (via the app) - I think I’m going to go get the lightning to 3.5 cable tomorrow, if so I’ll check in store again - if nothing else, based on what you say anyone wanting a pair will be best to ignore the website / app, and go in store.

 

[clerkpalmer]

They were mocked by the competition. go and read what Steve Balmer and the BlackBerry execs said. Read about how the iPad was sneered at. People never learn with Apple.

And I remember a lot of online comments about how crap AirPods look and people wouldn’t been seen dead with them.

You are making Apple out to be the underdog here. They are a $2 trillion company. They have the resources to make the best of anything they want. No one is saying the APM isn't a great BT headphone. What (at least) I am saying is, the APM is just that - a great BT headphone. It is not a replacement for an LCD2C or countless other wired headphones and it may not even be a replacement for the Sony and Bose (since they are much cheaper). Could someone with a high end rig decide the APM is "good enough" to cause them to dump their desktop system? Sure. But that's not the same as saying they are better than the desktop rig. I feel like we are on MacRumors here. The unbridled love affair with all things Apple is a bit much. It is fair game to criticize them where appropriate. To me, the lack of a high end codec and wired option were major misfires.

I'd withhold judgement til you have a chance to hear them. I will say that they are approximately 1000% better than the Ananda on build quality. Those things are the epitome of cheap Chinese crap build quality-wise. They sounded great but are awfully built.

I'm not sure I understand this point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the build quality on the Ananda. They are light and super comfortable. And since when is build quality a priority in a headphone. I mean, it matters but I don't go shopping based on build quality. I start and end with sound quality and comfort is in there. Unless they are garbage (the Ananda is not), it doesn't really weigh into my decision. Build quality to me suggests the focus is on being seen not heard. I would have preferred the Max to be lighter and less scratch prone.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Strangely enough, I commented on the head-Fi Facebook thread about the APM saying that I nearly bought a pair from a bricks and mortar store (via the Apple Store app) but they then sold out whilst in my basket / went back order - yet I went into an Apple store to sort out an iPhone 12 Pro Max only to find they had plenty in stock (except slate grey) - could be that Apple are doing odd things with their inventory to drive interest, or maybe they’re being delivered constantly and that 12-14 weeks is a worst case scenario?!

While 12-14 weeks is probably a slightly conservative estimate, they allocate stock to various other channels including Apple Stores and other retailers.

You are making Apple out to be the underdog here. They are a $2 trillion company. They have the resources to make the best of anything they want. No one is saying the APM isn't a great BT headphone. What (at least) I am saying is, the APM is just that - a great BT headphone. It is not a replacement for an LCD2C or countless other wired headphones and it may not even be a replacement for the Sony and Bose (since they are much cheaper). Could someone with a high end rig decide the APM is "good enough" to cause them to dump their desktop system? Sure. But that's not the same as saying they are better than the desktop rig. I feel like we are on MacRumors here. The unbridled love affair with all things Apple is a bit much. It is fair game to criticize them where appropriate. To me, the lack of a high end codec and wired option were major misfires.

If Apple were targeting audiophiles, then they would have introduced a lossless codec and tier to Apple Music. Frankly it seems like they’re trying to introduce a new category of high-end noise-canceling headphones to the consumer market. Sony and Bose will probably follow suit.

 

[clerkpalmer]

While 12-14 weeks is probably a slightly conservative estimate, they allocate stock to various other channels including Apple Stores and other retailers.



If Apple were targeting audiophiles, then they would have introduced a lossless codec and tier to Apple Music. Frankly it seems like they’re trying to introduce a new category of high-end consumer noise-canceling headphones. Sony and Bose will probably follow suit.

And that's perfectly reasonable. But there are people here declaring that these are better than their wired rigs. That is a step (or five) too far. I just think this discussion needs rome perspective. We are talking about wireless BT headphones with serious hardware and software limitations.

 

[Monstieur]

To me, the lack of a high end codec and wired option were major misfires.

Those perceived shortcomings are irrational. Apple does not need to resort to pseudoscience to sell products to audiophiles.

AAC is transparent, and other codecs are objectively inferior marketing bull. There is zero tangible improvement to be had with a different codec.

Wired is supported the only way it can be - the AirPods Max must be used only with DSP, by design, like the Mobius, iSine / LCDi, and Bose & Sony models. If you bypass the DSP, it will sound like crap.

And that's perfectly reasonable. But there are people here declaring that these are better than their wired rigs. That is a step (or five) too far. I just think this discussion needs rome perspective. We are talking about wireless BT headphones with serious hardware and software limitations.

It's objectively superior to a lot of hi-fi rigs, including most of the headphones in my signature. There are no serious limitations - see above. Your fears are unfounded without engineering facts, and are audiophile myths.

 

[clerkpalmer]

Those perceived shortcomings are irrational.

AAC is transparent and other codecs are objectively inferior marketing bull. There is zero measurable improvement to be had with a different codec.

Wired is supported the only way it can be - the AirPods Max must be used only with DSP, by design, like the Mobius, iSine / LCDi, and Bose & Sony models.

Sorry but I just don't agree. The entire audiophile industry has adopted LDAC as the gold standard for wireless hi Res audio. Yes I've read the sound guys article. The primary weakness is that bit rate can drop over LDAC but I can force 990 anytime I want and I absolutely can hear a difference.

Also lots of wireless headphones offer passive mode. Panda does. And isine can be run passive as well. Many prefer them passive to cipher.