[Gamerlingual]

Just comparing the APM with the AKG K371BT, using Bluetooth connection on both, from my iPhone. So APM should use AAC.

While the APM sound a bit more resolving, still the sound is less coherent. The rhythm and timing is better captured on the K371BT and overall easier to listen to.

Is there any option to completely disable the DSPs of the APM, i.e. use only the integrated DAC alone?

Edit:
I tried with disabled Headphone Accommodations, and it seems to vary from song to song now. Some songs sound fairly natural while others sound heavily processed.

Same for my Max. The orchestral songs in particular sound overly compressed

 

[tinyman392]

Just comparing the APM with the AKG K371BT, using Bluetooth connection on both, from my iPhone. So APM should use AAC.

While the APM sound a bit more resolving, still the sound is less coherent. The rhythm and timing is better captured on the K371BT and overall easier to listen to.

Is there any option to completely disable the DSPs of the APM, i.e. use only the integrated DAC alone?

Edit:
I tried with disabled Headphone Accommodations, and it seems to vary from song to song now. Some songs sound fairly natural while others sound heavily processed.

To be honest, the differences you’re hearing are likely more about the frequency response of the APM rather than the actual DSP. The only real DSP that is applied is either an EQ (when using accommodations), the real-time EQ that is done with AdaptiveEQ to keep the frequency response < 1kHz at the target, or the ANC/transparency features (which include the AdaptiveEQ).

That said, the way to use minimal DSP would be to turn off both ANC and transparency and shut off all accommodations. This should shut off the real-time aspect of the AdaptiveEQ, but there is no way to know if the non-realtime AdaptiveEQ is run when you put on the headphones (whether or not the headphones EQ based on the location of the headphones on the head when you put them on but don’t update after).

 

[MayaTlab]

To be honest, the differences you’re hearing are likely more about the frequency response of the APM rather than the actual DSP. The only real DSP that is applied is either an EQ (when using accommodations), the real-time EQ that is done with AdaptiveEQ to keep the frequency response < 1kHz at the target, or the ANC/transparency features (which include the AdaptiveEQ).

That said, the way to use minimal DSP would be to turn off both ANC and transparency and shut off all accommodations. This should shut off the real-time aspect of the AdaptiveEQ, but there is no way to know if the non-realtime AdaptiveEQ is run when you put on the headphones (whether or not the headphones EQ based on the location of the headphones on the head when you put them on but don’t update after).

Adaptive EQ is always somehow real time, even wen ANC is off, but requires a broader signal to work properly, unlike with ANC on.

The latest AirPods 3 feature Adaptive EQ even though they don’t have ANC.

 

[plakat]

I think the APM is simply designed as a system consisting of its acoustic components and its electronic components, the result is the tight integration of those two parts. There is no such thing as an acoustic-only APM…

Personally I think they’ve done an impressive job, showing where audio will go in the future. And I’m not talking about things like spatial audio (which I only use for films anyway) or ANC (which sometimes comes in handy, but it’s cousin transparency is the star of the show for me).

I‘d not expect the APM to have a mode of „amp only“ or purely passive… I guess we’ll never know how their drivers sound on their own as long as nobody is ready to rip his/her unit open and cut the ties… but except for gaining some technical knowledge — what’s the point anyway? I, for one, can enjoy the whole package.

 

[NewCoke]

Here's a back asswards way to get Atmos with Disney Plus for tvOS:

Start a track with Atmos with regular speakers, if you happen to have an Atmos speaker setup. Put the APM on your skull. The Disney Plus Atmos track will carryover to APM.

Otherwise, you are stuck with a max of multichannel via the Disney Plus app with APM on tvOS.

 

[tinyman392]

Adaptive EQ is always somehow real time, even wen ANC is off, but requires a broader signal to work properly, unlike with ANC on.

The latest AirPods 3 feature Adaptive EQ even though they don’t have ANC.

I always assumed that AdaptiveEQ needed either transparency or ANC to be on as both of those utilize the internal microphones of the APM to function and get rid of the uneven sound pressure in the acoustic chamber (for the APM it would be the area around your ear and ear canal, with the APP it’s the ear canal). That pressure comes back if I turn both systems off. I am curious how well it’ll function with the AP3 since it won’t have a perfect seal. I do have a pair of those delivering on Tuesday to play with.

 

[MayaTlab]

I always assumed that AdaptiveEQ needed either transparency or ANC to be on as both of those utilize the internal microphones of the APM to function and get rid of the uneven sound pressure in the acoustic chamber (for the APM it would be the area around your ear and ear canal, with the APP it’s the ear canal). That pressure comes back if I turn both systems off. I am curious how well it’ll function with the AP3 since it won’t have a perfect seal. I do have a pair of those delivering on Tuesday to play with.

The internal mic is still in use, but the ANC circuit itself off. Apple has a patent on the subject I've already linked to in this thread somewhere .
You can assess whether or not the feedback mechanism is in use by applying varying degrees of compression on the cups and measure the FR, something a bit like what I did here with ANC on : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ad-fi-and-sean-olive.27017/page-4#post-927518
The other clue is that when ANC is off the APM may show some deviation from the ANC on FR when using sweeps for measuring them (although in the case of my own on-head measurements I fail to get the large deviations that I've seen in some places), but not when using white noise (a large signal).
And finally on the APP - at least a new copy where the inside mesh hasn't been clogged up with skin oil / wax (but not the APM), you can use a little test to get an idea of how the feedback mechanism works when ANC is off :
- switch the APP to ANC off
- play pink noise for a few seconds
- stop playing pink noise
- start playing a single tone below a few hundred hertz, for example at 200Hz
- while the tone is playing, switch to ANC on. The sound level should be the same.
- while the tone is playing, switch back to ANC off. Now the sound level should be different.
- stop playing the tone. Play pink noise for a few seconds.
- stop playing pink noise. Play the tone again : now it should be back at the same level as with ANC on or ANC off after playing pink noise.

I am also very curious to see how Apple's Adaptive EQ will perform on a pair of HPs without a seal .

 

[theMUKe]

I think the APM is simply designed as a system consisting of its acoustic components and its electronic components, the result is the tight integration of those two parts. There is no such thing as an acoustic-only APM…

Personally I think they’ve done an impressive job, showing where audio will go in the future. And I’m not talking about things like spatial audio (which I only use for films anyway) or ANC (which sometimes comes in handy, but it’s cousin transparency is the star of the show for me).

I‘d not expect the APM to have a mode of „amp only“ or purely passive… I guess we’ll never know how their drivers sound on their own as long as nobody is ready to rip his/her unit open and cut the ties… but except for gaining some technical knowledge — what’s the point anyway? I, for one, can enjoy the whole package.

Indeed, the APM are more a tech gadget than a pure headphone. And probably other manufacturers will go in the same direction soon.

Transparency mode can be particularly useful for outdoor settings, e.g. when walking somewhere or in the office even.

As a headphone alone I am rather disappointed since it feels to me that technically the drivers are quite capable. But so much sound quality gets lost - whether it’s because of Bluetooth, heavy processing or whatever else.

For music alone it’s much better to go with wired cans and save a good amount of money. Apple could have made a big difference if additionally they had integrated a 3.5mm port (or even two, to run them balanced ).

 

[Heyyoudvd]

Indeed, the APM are more a tech gadget than a pure headphone. And probably other manufacturers will go in the same direction soon.

Transparency mode can be particularly useful for outdoor settings, e.g. when walking somewhere or in the office even.

As a headphone alone I am rather disappointed since it feels to me that technically the drivers are quite capable. But so much sound quality gets lost - whether it’s because of Bluetooth, heavy processing or whatever else.

For music alone it’s much better to go with wired cans and save a good amount of money. Apple could have made a big difference if additionally they had integrated a 3.5mm port (or even two, to run them balanced ).

The tech gadgetification of the entire world of electronics is a bit concerning. It provides some nice positives like cool features and technologies, but there are also some real drawbacks.

I love my APM, but I don’t expect them to still work in another 5 or 6 years. Batteries degrade, processors become outdated, wireless technologies change, and OS compatibility and feature support eventually drops off.

Meanwhile, I’ve owned the same pair of SR60s for 20 years, with just 2 pad changes and one minor repair to resolder a wire. But they’re 20 years old and they function like new. And I expect my recently purchased 6XX to give me at least 10-12 years if I take care of them.

Turning everything into a computer really kills the lifespan.

 

[plakat]

Indeed, the APM are more a tech gadget than a pure headphone. And probably other manufacturers will go in the same direction soon.

Transparency mode can be particularly useful for outdoor settings, e.g. when walking somewhere or in the office even.

As a headphone alone I am rather disappointed since it feels to me that technically the drivers are quite capable. But so much sound quality gets lost - whether it’s because of Bluetooth, heavy processing or whatever else.

For music alone it’s much better to go with wired cans and save a good amount of money. Apple could have made a big difference if additionally they had integrated a 3.5mm port (or even two, to run them balanced ).

I don't think they wanted to make something to cater to a high-end lover, their focus is much broader -- and that would be hindered by features that are maybe important to a small crowd, but of no relevance to the majority of their potential customers. They are not competing with Audeze or 64audio, but maybe with Sennheiser and Sony (not the HD800 etc. bit the respective upper midrange offerings). And that they do very well.

I also don't think they betrayed the possibilities of the driver they developed: neither do I think the APM sounds bad, not do I think they lost their focus in gimmicks.

A wired headphone (of which I still own too many) is simply not that easy to use with many modern smartphones (iPhone in my case). Would Apple produce a headphone that required a dongle to use with their own most prominent music source?

On the loss of quality: with a good AAC implementation like on the iPhone I don't have any troubles with loss of fidelity. Especially not in the situations when I might use the APM, mobile or during work, where I really appreciate wireless most. Yes, I'd still appreciate if the iPhone still had its 3,5mm socket. It doesn't. I decided to continue using it nevertheless.

This development does have implications such as product lifetime though, and that aspect is more troubling to me than balanced or wireless to be honest. All wired headphones I have work with 3,5mm... just like the first mobile music devices long time ago.

 

[SparkOnShore]

I always assumed that AdaptiveEQ needed either transparency or ANC to be on as both of those utilize the internal microphones of the APM to function and get rid of the uneven sound pressure in the acoustic chamber (for the APM it would be the area around your ear and ear canal, with the APP it’s the ear canal). That pressure comes back if I turn both systems off. I am curious how well it’ll function with the AP3 since it won’t have a perfect seal. I do have a pair of those delivering on Tuesday to play with.

Waiting to hear your opinion on the AP3's sound quality aspect. On one hand they are always useful and so comfortable/easy to use for calls, but on the other they are a pain to use for music listening when out in the streets, with all environmental noise coming in. Of course the open character certainly contributes to the airy presentation of the previous model, but to me they were only listenable at home, in a quiet space. Anyway let us know your impressions!

 

[SparkOnShore]

I don't think they wanted to make something to cater to a high-end lover, their focus is much broader -- and that would be hindered by features that are maybe important to a small crowd, but of no relevance to the majority of their potential customers. They are not competing with Audeze or 64audio, but maybe with Sennheiser and Sony (not the HD800 etc. bit the respective upper midrange offerings). And that they do very well.

I also don't think they betrayed the possibilities of the driver they developed: neither do I think the APM sounds bad, not do I think they lost their focus in gimmicks.

A wired headphone (of which I still own too many) is simply not that easy to use with many modern smartphones (iPhone in my case). Would Apple produce a headphone that required a dongle to use with their own most prominent music source?

On the loss of quality: with a good AAC implementation like on the iPhone I don't have any troubles with loss of fidelity. Especially not in the situations when I might use the APM, mobile or during work, where I really appreciate wireless most. Yes, I'd still appreciate if the iPhone still had its 3,5mm socket. It doesn't. I decided to continue using it nevertheless.

This development does have implications such as product lifetime though, and that aspect is more troubling to me than balanced or wireless to be honest. All wired headphones I have work with 3,5mm... just like the first mobile music devices long time ago.

But we still have the dongle, which can be used for Apple Music lossless 24/48. It is practically the same thing, just adding a few cm of cable. I never found it more difficult to use than the plain 3,5' plug.

 

[tinyman392]

Waiting to hear your opinion on the AP3's sound quality aspect. On one hand they are always useful and so comfortable/easy to use for calls, but on the other they are a pain to use for music listening when out in the streets, with all environmental noise coming in. Of course the open character certainly contributes to the airy presentation of the previous model, but to me they were only listenable at home, in a quiet space. Anyway let us know your impressions!

I am curious what kind of sound signature Apple will do with the AP3. The AP vs EP was kind of a disappointment since the EP had a better tonality overall. The APP kind of hit right where I wanted it to with regards to tonality which was great. The APM isn’t my favorite flavor, but it’s still very well done. I’ll have to dig out my OG AP too to compare to.

 

[plakat]

But we still have the dongle, which can be used for Apple Music lossless 24/48. It is practically the same thing, just adding a few cm of cable. I never found it more difficult to use than the plain 3,5' plug.

I‘ve tried that a few times and while it’s perfectly fine while working it does not work for me while on the go: the lightning connector comes free when under mechanical stress (in my pocket etc).

That small adapter is of good quality and works fine with many headphones. I don’t think it’s inferior to the built-in electronics of old, it’s just the mechanical problem which makes it less versatile than the plain 3,5mm option.

 

[SparkOnShore]

I‘ve tried that a few times and while it’s perfectly fine while working it does not work for me while on the go: the lightning connector comes free when under mechanical stress (in my pocket etc).

That small adapter is of good quality and works fine with many headphones. I don’t think it’s inferior to the built-in electronics of old, it’s just the mechanical problem which makes it less versatile than the plain 3,5mm option.

I never faced such an issue. Normally I put iPhone at the back pocket of my jeans, or in backpack while walking. The lightning adaptor stays always out or at the top of the backpack's pocket. But generally speaking, lightning connector even while charging seems very solid to me, at least same sturdiness as the 3,5' plug. Is it possible that the lightning socket of your iPhone has become kind of loose over time? Of course I recommend to never put iPhone with the adaptor on, at the jeans' front pocket, since it will certainly be subject of pressure with any leg movement. But this is valid as well for the 3,5' plug.