AirPods Max
Jun 29, 2021 at 9:55 AM Post #4,486 of 5,629
Troubleshooting help needed. Playing off of non-Apple headphones.
Hey, I need help. Anyone having issues playing Atmos off of non-Apple headphones? I want to run a comparison between APM and HE6SE (just for fun), to see which has better Atmos playback, but I'm stuck here.

Going off of my iMac, via Schiit Bifrost 2 --> Xduoo TA-30 --> HE6SE V2...

I am unable to figure any situation out where I can hear a difference between Atmos settings turned on or off. I've tried the following with no effect I can hear between on and off:

1) Streaming the tracks (no downloads). FAILED
Flipping between Dolby Atmos "Always On" and "Off," and not hearing a difference.


Atmos settings.png



2) Downloading the tracks (with downloaded files as Atmos turned on; also tried downloading with Atmos downloads turned off). FAILED
Download in Atmos.png


3) [???]


What can I do to solve this situation? If I put on APM, the difference between switching between Atmos on and off on the iMac is obvious, as obvious as it is on the iOS. So what's up with my desktop rig unable to hear the differences? The reviewers online, and people here, seem to get other headphones to work, so what's up? How did you do it?
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 10:43 AM Post #4,487 of 5,629
Troubleshooting help needed. Playing off of non-Apple headphones.
Hey, I need help. Anyone having issues playing Atmos off of non-Apple headphones? I want to run a comparison between APM and HE6SE (just for fun), to see which has better Atmos playback, but I'm stuck here.

Going off of my iMac, via Schiit Bifrost 2 --> Xduoo TA-30 --> HE6SE V2...

I am unable to figure any situation out where I can hear a difference between Atmos settings turned on or off. I've tried the following with no effect I can hear between on and off:

1) Streaming the tracks (no downloads). FAILED
Flipping between Dolby Atmos "Always On" and "Off," and not hearing a difference.





2) Downloading the tracks (with downloaded files as Atmos turned on; also tried downloading with Atmos downloads turned off). FAILED


3) [???]


What can I do to solve this situation? If I put on APM, the difference between switching between Atmos on and off on the iMac is obvious, as obvious as it is on the iOS. So what's up with my desktop rig unable to hear the differences? The reviewers online, and people here, seem to get other headphones to work, so what's up? How did you do it?
You're not on the beta MacOS right? I have a feeling that Apple Music is setting stream priority in this order, lossless > Dolby > AAC, for non-Spatial-Audio headphones and in this order, Dolby > lossless > AAC, for Spatial-Audio-supporting headphones (if you're on the beta, the order might still be lossless > Dolby > AAC and you could be hearing Spatialized stereo vs Dolby Atmos) . For downloads, I think the priority is lossless > Dolby > AAC.

Granted it would require a bit of overhaul on how Apple downloads music, it would be really nice for Apple to download two versions of the song when you select to download music, the regular version (either lossless or AAC) and the Atmos version (if available). Then play back based on your settings (having Atmos override the lossless).
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 10:58 AM Post #4,488 of 5,629
I have a similiar question: I have downloaded Rushs Tom Sawyer on my iMac in Dolby Atmos. Dolby Atmos is set to “always on“. When hearing it with my APM the song information shows Dolby Atmos and I hear the Dolby Atmos Version (See screenshot). When hearing it with my B&O H95 the song information shows AAC Audio, and I don‘t hear the Dolby Atmos Version, but the file size is identical (second screenshot).
Doing the Same on my iPhone, the H95 plays the Dolby Atmos Version.
 

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Jun 29, 2021 at 11:06 AM Post #4,489 of 5,629
You're not on the beta MacOS right? I have a feeling that Apple Music is setting stream priority in this order, lossless > Dolby > AAC, for non-Spatial-Audio headphones and in this order, Dolby > lossless > AAC, for Spatial-Audio-supporting headphones (if you're on the beta, the order might still be lossless > Dolby > AAC and you could be hearing Spatialized stereo vs Dolby Atmos) . For downloads, I think the priority is lossless > Dolby > AAC.

Granted it would require a bit of overhaul on how Apple downloads music, it would be really nice for Apple to download two versions of the song when you select to download music, the regular version (either lossless or AAC) and the Atmos version (if available). Then play back based on your settings (having Atmos override the lossless).
I’ve also tried turning off lossless altogether. Still not hearing or seeing Dolby indicated at all (when using non-Apple headphones).
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 12:04 PM Post #4,490 of 5,629
I have a similiar question: I have downloaded Rushs Tom Sawyer on my iMac in Dolby Atmos. Dolby Atmos is set to “always on“. When hearing it with my APM the song information shows Dolby Atmos and I hear the Dolby Atmos Version (See screenshot). When hearing it with my B&O H95 the song information shows AAC Audio, and I don‘t hear the Dolby Atmos Version, but the file size is identical (second screenshot).
Doing the Same on my iPhone, the H95 plays the Dolby Atmos Version.
That's interesting that both file sizes are the same. I guarantee that the original AAC recording isn't 36 MB unless it's like a 15 minute long song. There is the possibility that it's playing the Atmos version of the song still but not displaying that message.
I’ve also tried turning off lossless altogether. Still not hearing or seeing Dolby indicated at all (when using non-Apple headphones).
That's probably a bug on the Mac, especially if streaming (vs downloaded).
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 12:14 PM Post #4,491 of 5,629
That's interesting that both file sizes are the same. I guarantee that the original AAC recording isn't 36 MB unless it's like a 15 minute long song. There is the possibility that it's playing the Atmos version of the song still but not displaying that message.

That's probably a bug on the Mac, especially if streaming (vs downloaded).
So how do you approach listening to Atmos with audio gear that isn't Apple's? I'm not getting it on anything but my APM currently (haven't tried with APP or HomePod).
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 12:14 PM Post #4,492 of 5,629
That's interesting that both file sizes are the same. I guarantee that the original AAC recording isn't 36 MB unless it's like a 15 minute long song. There is the possibility that it's playing the Atmos version of the song still but not displaying that message.
Almost certainly the identical file but decoded differently depending on headphones detected. I know that is not how it is supposed to work, but that is where the evidence leads us. Based on the confusion by all, and the lack of accurate and clear guidance by Apple, I suspect a rushed launch moving fast and breaking stuff. Very unApplely.
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 12:56 PM Post #4,493 of 5,629
Mac OSX Monterrey has spatial audio to APM. Watched a few minutes of Greyhound 2 days ago……this is the best application of audio in a long time! Watched 2 episodes of Loki on iPad Pro with iPad OS 15 and again, damn Spatial Audio is good in films. Music is clearly in the very early stages of development with this tech but movies/shows. It’s on point!
What about from AppleTV. Is it supported - Spatial audio for iTunes Movies via Bluetooth to Airpod Max? Or perhaps this on the way?
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 2:15 PM Post #4,494 of 5,629
So how do you approach listening to Atmos with audio gear that isn't Apple's? I'm not getting it on anything but my APM currently (haven't tried with APP or HomePod).
iOS may be your only option right now if this bug is indeed real. If you have an iPad Pro you can use a USB-C dock/adapter and connect a DAC. Some DACs/amps will work with the USB CCK that Apple offers (some require you to unplug and replug in the adapter a few times to get them to work; they can be tricky). I haven't run into a DAC/amp that I couldn't get to run off the Apple CCK, even if it says the accessory isn't supported, unplugging and replugging eventually gets it to read (either unplugging from the Lightning side, the USB side, or both). But my experience with external DACs/amps is relatively small (< 10).

Note that Dolby Atmos on its own does not include any sort of head tracking. You're not going to be able to get that using any non-supported headphone. It is also possible that you are hearing the Atmos version of the song, but it's being labeled wrong while playing with unsupported headphones. The issue is that I don't know how you would be able to check for sure what's actually playing.
Almost certainly the identical file but decoded differently depending on headphones detected. I know that is not how it is supposed to work, but that is where the evidence leads us. Based on the confusion by all, and the lack of accurate and clear guidance by Apple, I suspect a rushed launch moving fast and breaking stuff. Very unApplely.
The launch was definitely rushed. But I don't believe their are different renderings for APM and APP, not that I could really hear when comparing using APP, APM, and various non-Spatial-supporting headphones (nothing more than I'd expect from the change from a headphones' sound signature that is).

Edit: I guess I could see the possibility that the APP or APM will adjust the render on headphone in real time. Apple does have the chipset on the headphone to do that already.
What about from AppleTV. Is it supported - Spatial audio for iTunes Movies via Bluetooth to Airpod Max? Or perhaps this on the way?
Apple TV Spatial Audio support is currently in beta. It will be on its way.
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 3:09 PM Post #4,495 of 5,629
Atmos (Spatial Audio), Some Thoughts with an AirPods Max
Playlist discussed: "Spatial Audio: Made for Spatial Audio"


Not Loud Enough
If you try switching between Spatial Audio turned on and turned off, you will hear just how much louder the music is when Spatial Audio is turned off. This louder sound coming from the setting turned off continues on all tracks. Which frequency responses are lowered so much, or if it is across the board, I cannot say. But try going to any track on your own. Pick at random or try them all, it won't matter. The difference is so substantial with what physically fills the space around the ear, with so much less sound pressure, that the Spatial Audio turned on carries with it a drastically less impactful state of music listening.

Take, for example, Blinding Lights by The Weeknd. Here is what I measured...





Spatial Audio ON


Spatial Audio OFF



The "Leq," or average decibels measured over the course of the recording, is the most telling alongside the "Max" dB that was measured. With Spatial Audio on, the Leq was about six and half dB less than when Spatial Audio was off. The max dB was similarly apart, by about six dB.

What does this mean? Spatial audio does not reach as loud. Plain and simple*. For blinding Lights, I got more joy out of Spatial Audio turned OFF. That lack of ability for Atmos to hit 80 dB, as well as averaging a quieter presence both in raw measurement and qualitative closeness, meant that Atmos/Spatial Audio suffered in engagement compared to Atmos turned off.

That being said, is Spatial Audio still listenable? Is it still at least enjoyable for what it offers in place of a loss in loudness? Listenable sure, but enjoyable it is not. Turning Spatial OFF brings immediately more joy. In this track, for me and my tastes personally, the APM shows to be less engaging when Spatial Audio is turned on. Your mileage may ever vary.
*I would ignore the "Min" dB's recorded, since that may differ due to ambient changes to my open recorded environment in my home. However, if the minimum dB values present a true difference in the playback between Spatial turned off and on, then these results would infer that there is greater dynamic range when Spatial Audio is turned off. I doubt this to be the case. More likely, my AC turned on or off during recording, or some other extraneous errors like my finger tapping the glass of my phone to stop the recording, or starting my dB reader recording at slightly different moments each time.

Is louder music playback important elsewhere? What about the crescendos of a symphony?




Spatial Audio ON



Spatial Audio OFF



How loud should something ever get, even if only instantaneously? Classical is known for the quietest sounds being appreciated alongside the wildest instants of engaging overbearing thunderously loud crescendos. I like having that ability to reach higher heights in that dynamic range. The APM is able to portray the quiet moments clearly with Spatial on or off. However, the issue on Atmos with classical arises when trying to appreciate the louder moments.

The max loudness was 85 dB with Spatial/Atmos, compared to a higher 90 dB with Atmos off. This means that the dramatic moments with Atmos may not feel as loud as I would have wanted them to. I kept feeling like Atmos lacked raw impact - just as I felt before with the modern hit song, Blinding Lights.

So what about the soundstage and 3D soundscape capability of Atmos?

Dolby Atmos (Spatial Audio), Better than Stereo?
Usually? No.
Sometimes? Yes, but it depends.
Is Atmos’ 3D and bigger soundstage worth the quieter and sometimes less intimate playback? YMMV

With many tracks I tried that were, seemingly and probably, originally mastered in stereo, Atmos works its magic by giving the impression that the instruments have been spread out around you. As good as this sounds, the negative effect of gaining so much soundstage is sometimes that the staging isn't actually very appealing - compared to the original stereo master. I hear this loss in artistically tasteful sound staging with vocals in particular, on quite a few tracks. Not all tracks, but enough to be an issue for many.

Where the problem is heard, it is when move from close up and pleasantly intimate in stereo, to being somewhere further around you in space. Vocals, on many tracks, somehow end up pushed in the back somewhere ahead of you - or someplace difficult to discern further away that seems like it wasn’t likely what the mastering would’ve intended. Voices just kept feeling further from me and actually much quieter than they used to with Atmos turned off. That is, in normal stereo listening mode, Atmos turned off, voices can often feel far more engaging and intentionally placed.


Let's take a look at Billie Eilish's "Bad Guy" as a prime example of vocal staging gone wrong. And keep in mind, this was a track Apple put on their list of songs as "Made for Spatial Audio."




Go to 2:50 up through the end of the track. Try that with Atmos on and off. What do you notice immediately? Go try it for yourself...

Did you try it? To at least my ear, and I bet yours too, her voice sounded far better and more intentionally placed close to your ears when Atmos was turned OFF. With Atmos off, her voice was so close to the ears that it may as well have been ASMR. She was next to your face, she felt so close. It is likely that the engineers and artist wanted this effect when they released the stereo version. But, when Spatial Audio mode is turned on, her voice goes away further from the head and it loses its purposeful intimacy.

With Atmos turned ON again, her voice lost all of that ASMR quality completely. This example shows me more clearly to me just how much an Atmos application can go wrong. Truly great sound staging will have to be crafted with care.




Picture depicts how Atmos allows for sound engineers, and listeners, to simulate acoustics originating from anywhere in all three dimensions.

Atmos would seem like it obviously has a higher potential for musical listening possibilities on paper. After all, sound engineers can use Atmos plugins in their workflow. When mastering a track, this plugin would allow sound engineers to place specific instruments in any position around the listener and to mix the loudness and so on to produce a convincingly authentic musical experience.

There would seem to only be more tools now available to artists and engineers than ever to bring about a new chapter in musical enjoyment. Heck, the Atmos track of the future for classical could place all music from various points in the front but also the top and back to mimic the natural reverb coming from multiple directions in a performance hall. Or what about jazz clubs or live concerts. Apple is pushing forward ahead with getting Atmos the launching power it needs to garner further development.

But right now, with the many of tracks I have heard on Apple's recommended playlist for Spatial Audio, and perhaps most music among my own favorites, I did not get a pleasant overall interest with the voice-butchering distance Atmos had created between the vocals and the rest of the music. So, on top of having low volume overall when listening to Atmos, the voices in Atmos are even quieter compared to the track's other instruments.

If Atmos is utilized to the full extent of what it should technically allow for, it could be great...but...
You can have as wide, deep, and tall of a soundstage as much as you would like to have, but it doesn't matter if the instruments are misplaced and under-heard. It doesn't matter to have a 3D space if music doesn't engage nor appear overall any more naturally authentic than stereo.

Atmos's 3D soundstage concept should open many doors for both engineers and listeners. I sincerely hope that the best Atmos has to offer won't be limited to an inevitable new wave of ASMR videos.

I'm still, currently, finding more joy in the old non-Atmos mode. I hope vocal placement, across-stage placement, and overly quiet volume can all be improved on. That's my current take anyway.

I'll end by trying to share some tracks that had something to their Atmos quality that seemed to work well. But in every case, they were still just too quiet and suffered from impact because of this overall lower volume.

Where Atmos does well, maybe even MUCH better
Here are some tracks I genuinely enjoyed more for what Atmos did to vocals and overall, but may still be having an issue with max dB capacity.

Olivia Rodrigo's "good 4 u"





Disclosure's "Latch (feat. Sam Smith)"













Conclusion: Atmos is not fully ready, but shows promise
That's all there is to it, from what I've heard so far on APM. Atmos places voices and instruments in places that aren't always favorable to how they were originally mastered in stereo. Yet, there is great promise, especially now that Apple has put its full weight into the technology. Hopefully, we will see more and more tracks that are mastered in Atmos, or within 3D toolsets, so that we may all enjoy music in a new and potentially more immersive way.

I hope you all find enjoyment where you find it in your music. Maybe someone loves Atmos in more cases than me, but it's just not for me yet with most music. Someday maybe.

Cheers :)
Why not try decibel/volume matching and listening again?

Although your consensus is pretty spot-on.

Edit:

I tried doing a comparison using “Bad Guy” as a reference track and I quite liked the Atmos presentation. It’s easier to pick out Billie’s vocals and harmonies over the powerfully gratuitous bass-line. I think the stereo version is an amazing mix/master, while this provides a new perspective on a track that the average listener has probably heard dozens of times at this point. It seems more dynamic and better-separated, which works well for the many layers such as the hi-hats that may not be as noticeable in the original mix. This is one track that’s great either way, but I feel the Atmos presentation is one of the better examples.

“Bad Guy” also sounds amazing in lossless over CarPlay. I absolutely do think there’s more clarity, the bass feels deeper, and it’s easier to pick out individual instruments.

We were listening to the Spatial Audio playlist in my friend’s car with an Infinity sound system, not realizing until later on that it was playing in Lossless even with Dolby Atmos set to always on and there are definitely still instruments and layers that are more easily apparent.
 
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Jun 29, 2021 at 3:49 PM Post #4,496 of 5,629
That's interesting that both file sizes are the same. I guarantee that the original AAC recording isn't 36 MB unless it's like a 15 minute long song. There is the possibility that it's playing the Atmos version of the song still but not displaying that message.
Yes, the original AAC has 7 MB, with the H95 you do not hear the Atmos Version, when playing by iMac, its a Stereo Version (perhaps with more MB).
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 5:12 PM Post #4,497 of 5,629
Why not try decibel/volume matching and listening again?

Although your consensus is pretty spot-on.

Edit:

I tried doing a comparison using “Bad Guy” as a reference track and I quite liked the Atmos presentation. It’s easier to pick out Billie’s vocals and harmonies over the powerfully gratuitous bass-line. I think the stereo version is an amazing mix/master, while this provides a new perspective on a track that the average listener has probably heard dozens of times at this point. It seems more dynamic and better-separated, which works well for the many layers such as the hi-hats that may not be as noticeable in the original mix. This is one track that’s great either way, but I feel the Atmos presentation is one of the better examples.

“Bad Guy” also sounds amazing in lossless over CarPlay. I absolutely do think there’s more clarity, the bass feels deeper, and it’s easier to pick out individual instruments.

We were listening to the Spatial Audio playlist in my friend’s car with an Infinity sound system, not realizing until later on that it was playing in Lossless even with Dolby Atmos set to always on and there are definitely still instruments and layers that are more easily apparent.
Hey good point. Volume matching would help comparing other aspects of the song in general, apart from loudness capability. However, I maxed out the volume for my testing, and still felt the volume wanting. So that became a kind of focal point for me in my short take on the whole thing.

I agree with you in how Bad Guy can sound better in respects, maybe enough to be preferred, in Atmos. I just got hung up a lot on how much her voice wasn’t as close to the ears with Atmos, as it was originally.

I completely agree with you how Atmos is able to create clearer separation between instruments and vocals. It really helps to be able to hear everything in the track more easily overall. When the tracks are mastered or one way or another better adjusted with Atmos turned on, they are potentially a big improvement over a stereo master.

My favorite example was “Mystery Lady” by Masego & Don Toliver. Vocals don’t suffer, and actually become seemingly only intended for Atmos. The vocals actually shift from side to side in Atmos, whereas stereo does not do this at all. It is strange though, since left to right is doable in stereo of course. Still, the track is great, really something different in Atmos entirely.

 
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Jun 29, 2021 at 9:36 PM Post #4,498 of 5,629
Hey good point. Volume matching would help comparing other aspects of the song in general, apart from loudness capability. However, I maxed out the volume for my testing, and still felt the volume wanting. So that became a kind of focal point for me in my short take on the whole thing.

I agree with you in how Bad Guy can sound better in respects, maybe enough to be preferred, in Atmos. I just got hung up a lot on how much her voice wasn’t as close to the ears with Atmos, as it was originally.

I completely agree with you how Atmos is able to create clearer separation between instruments and vocals. It really helps to be able to hear everything in the track more easily overall. When the tracks are mastered or one way or another better adjusted with Atmos turned on, they are potentially a big improvement over a stereo master.

My favorite example was “Mystery Lady” by Masego & Don Toliver. Vocals don’t suffer, and actually become seemingly only intended for Atmos. The vocals actually shoft from side to side in Atmos, whereas stereo does not do this at all. It is strange though, since left to right is doable in stereo of course. Still, the track is great, really something different in Atmos entirely.

I was reading about how some tracks are mixed differently in Atmos, even with additional layers/instruments that weren’t in the original stereo mix. It gives the artist and mix engineer liberty to have some fun rather than simply recreating the stereo mix in Atmos and staying completely faithful.

While I hear your point about Billie’s vocals, adding distance and space seems to be the main selling point of Dolby Atmos. It shouldn’t be expected for it to remain the same: for the most part it’s like going from a closed-back to an open-back headphone.
 
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