[Maukey]

Thanks a lot Maukey for replying to my message and giving a so thorough comparison review between the M3 and the APM. It really helped me a lot! Reading your comments in head fi, made me realize how you care important details, that’s why i contacted you, asking you for this favor. I deeply appreciate it. Best wishes!

I really appreciate that! Best wishes to you as well

 

[SparkOnShore]

If memory serves (my memory isn't the best at times), you were the one that stated that the fabric was giving you irritation to your skin right? I don't remember if you had clamping issues or sizing issues where the adjustable arms didn't go far enough (both are very common issues with the APM). If so, I can definitely see why the headphones were very uncomfortable. The irritation alone can sometimes lead to inflammation which produces heat on its own.

If there are sizing issues, this could further have the housings shift in place which might as well be like scratching irritated skin. Maybe an over exaggeration, but the pads might as well be sand paper at some point. If clamping force issues then the pads get further compressed which reduces air flow in and out of an already hot area.

I do wonder if a perforated suede or leather pad with similar memory foam would deal with some of the comfort issues for you (I know you returned your pair already). Granted they'd have to be custom made.



Not going to lie, when I read that you were expecting the APM today, I was about read to pop some popcorn and watch all the drama unfold. Glad you were able to square away the opinions of comfort after experiencing it for yourself.

so no popcorn after all!)



OK, this legit would drive me crazy.

Yes, it drove me crazy as well! Apple has the upper hand over all traditional headphone manufacturers on the software part. Sennheiser for example can produce awesome sound headphones, but they cannot have software implementation knowledge similar to Apple, by any means! Not even close!



I removed them at first after experiencing weirdness with the ANC/transparency modes. But if you don't hear anything going on, I likely wouldn't worry about them either.



If you look here there is a breakdown of what's required for Spacial Audio. I believe your iPad Air 4th generation would fall under the iPad Air (3rd generation or later) requirement. So it should work there. Apps that support it are Apple TV+, Hulu, and Disney+. Netflix is testing the waters right now and will eventually support it seems.

Thanks a lot for your info!



The main issue with the case is that it leaves the headband exposed. The headband core itself is very strong and I have no issues leaving that exposed. The fabric that Apple uses on the headband is extremely thin and feels fragile in the hand. If you don't have anything poking or prodding where the headphones would be, it's not an issue. I have no problem putting them in my backpack when I head out to the office or just around my neck when I head out of the house. That seems to be the only issue with the case.

The APM seems sized to fit into a large shoulder bag which would contain the keys and maybe other stuff that might stick the fabric. This would also be able to scratch the housings (through the openings in the case) It's the only real instance I see the case causing issues.



Did any reviews actually say you couldn't charge them while in the case? I don't remember reading that. Maybe they put the headphones in backwards and didn't realize?

Yes, i read it and i got astonished knowing how Apple cares such details. I can’t remember where i read it though. If i find it i will share the link.



I tend to have a very small head, so I never need to readjust my headphones as I put them in a case of any sort. There is a gain with Apple's minimalistic case where you actually don't need to do that if you have the arms adjusted pretty long though.

I also extended the arms just something like 3 cm, it was enough for my head.

 

[MayaTlab]

Sony may fold better and take less space but i think the different hinges contribute to the constant plastic noises i was hearing while moving my head with the XM4. That was the main reason i eventually sold them, in addition to that i was not so fond of their sound. So i think a manufacturer must find a golden balance between folding really small and having a sturdier, more stable and totally silent headphone use. To me it is impressive how flash it stays on the side of my head/face. I looked in the mirror and could not believe it staying exactly stuck, precisely parallel to my head’s sides. I have used many different over ears but nothing looked like that on me really.

I would dissociate a specific mechanical design from the experience of hearing noises coming from it. I believe that it rather has something to do with the exact implementation, I've used plenty of hinged headband that didn't produce noises when worn (for example my ex P7W) and others that did.

The fact that the headband doesn't stick out to the sides is something that I enjoy quite a lot, but is something that can be achieved with a very boring and traditional Y yoke design as well, it just depends on carefully designing the geometry of the headband, yoke and yoke to cup attachment to that effect. The XM4's headband doesn't stick much further from my head than the APM (the cups do though, because they're thicker, but that is a different problem).

Hinges in general are very tricky. They routinely appear as areas of weakness for a pair of headphones to break at. I do understand the portability gain from having one, but I also feel like it typically becomes a hinderance when it comes to build in terms of actual/physical strength and subjective feels sturdy type of opinions. If done well it can be very good though (I think V-Moda's Clickfold mechanism feels very good when it folds and unfolds). I also feel like having an hinge without exposed wires would also be a very difficult task (something Apple seemed to really be going after.

After seeing how Apple designed the connection between the telescoping arms and housings, I am curious how Apple would attempt to do something that folds. I'm not sure if the compromises would be worth it to Apple though.

Well, Apple's current joint solution possibly is the most complicated mechanical part ever fitted to a pair of headphones in the history of headphones, so... it's no wonder that this is happening to some pairs (and actually did happen to mine, I had them exchanged) : https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/airpods-max-clicking-hinge.2276500/
I'd expect this problem to disappear once production is sorted out though.
I'm actually really impressed that Apple's engineers and manufacturing capabilities could make it work.
There already exist quite a few headphones with a folding hinge with very discreet cable routing and it's a very boring, proven design that's been in use for decades.

The funny thing is that Apple's excuse to design the headband to cup joint the way they've done so is the following (patent linked above) :

So the theoretical benefits would be that by eliminating the traditional yoke mechanism the spring loaded pivot could reduce the overall bulk of the headphones.
That's very theoretical because :
- as the XM4 shows a traditional yoke design can still be low profile and not stick out too much from the head (counter examples : HD350BT, H95, these make you look like Teletubbies). Other headphones can also achieve a slim earcup profile (Huawei FreeBuds Studio for example. I've just received them today).
- the total weight of the APM is among the highest in its class - and I'm ready to bet that the pivot mechanism alone is significantly heavier than ugly, cheap but still reliable plastic Y shaped yokes,
- the width and height of the cups is among the largest in its class (some of it is just because there's a lot of empty air in them though. When apple introduced the Macbook 12" they said they don't want to ship air, well that's very much what they're doing with the APM ).
And the drawbacks are quite many - mostly related to the actual spring rate being fixed, meaning that it simply won't adapt quite as well to various head shapes as a yoke mechanism that naturally evenly applies pressure around the ear without the need of a spring.

I'm not actually advocating for a boring plastic hinge of the XM4 kind. Just that the headband, extension arms and joint to cup area is where I would like to see Apple propose truly innovative and novel solutions to improve packability and time of deployment, and that I think that the pivot mechanism is a brilliant - and over-complicated - solution still in search of an actual problem to solve.

 

[SparkOnShore]

The main issue with the case is that it leaves the headband exposed. The headband core itself is very strong and I have no issues leaving that exposed. The fabric that Apple uses on the headband is extremely thin and feels fragile in the hand. If you don't have anything poking or prodding where the headphones would be, it's not an issue. I have no problem putting them in my backpack when I head out to the office or just around my neck when I head out of the house. That seems to be the only issue with the case.

Fabrics are my profession, household, upholstery fabrics etc, so judging from how i see it, both headband as well as caps‘ fabrics are incredibly weaved. The headband one especially is so soft but at the same time so tightly weaved that i would not worry about it. They are fabrics really sophisticatedly weaved and uniquely attached to the rest construction.

 

[MayaTlab]

Fabrics are my profession, household, upholstery fabrics etc, so judging from how i see it, both headband as well as caps‘ fabrics are incredibly weaved. The headband one especially is so soft but at the same time so tightly weaved that i would not worry about it. They are fabrics really sophisticatedly weaved and uniquely attached to the rest construction.

With what sort of material and process would you think the headband's canopy is made of ?
In a certain way it reminds me of stockings.

 

[tinyman392]

@SparkOnShore Apple had to really go way out of the standard BT protocols to get their switching stuff to work. Granted it would likely be limited to just Macs, Windows, and Linux machines, it is possible for other companies to create a sort of delegating app to connect to multiple devices with said client and maybe 1 device outside the client(s). So multiple computers and a phone. It may be possible to set it up with Android actually as well. Basically each device you wanted it to connect to would need the app/client installed and those talk to each other to get connections switching smoothly. Apple doesn't really have to deal with this since they control all the machines that have support for this, so the software is already installed.

Thanks for the information regarding the fabric used on the headband. Your expertise and opinion on the subject does put my mind at ease about it though. I guess this is one of those areas where subjective feels of build quality and physical nature of the actual build quality differs, which tends to happen.

@MayaTlab That MacRumors thread is kind of concerning. Hopefully these are isolated issues and it's not a design issue (like the APP ANC/transparency click/static thing). I guess we'll find out with time. I can see the spring mechanism Apple's using limiting how the pads can fit a person's head, especially when they're placed on the top of the cup vs the center. The need for a spring likely also increase the clamping force too.

 

[Author]

Hi I tried the AirPods Max on my Apple TV 4K. Audio output at very low volume level. the same goes for the AirPods Pro too. I really hope the next Apple TV has a more decent audio output.

I use the Apple TV (non 4K). Just wanted to share I don’t have volume issues. Not doubting you. Just wanted to share that there may be hope with some more troubleshooting. Good luck.

 

[tinyman392]

Hi I tried the AirPods Max on my Apple TV 4K. Audio output at very low volume level. the same goes for the AirPods Pro too. I really hope the next Apple TV has a more decent audio output.

Stupid idea, but it might work. Try to increase the volume on the AirPods (either on an iPhone, iPad, or Mac) before connecting to the Apple TV? If this works, there is definitely a bug that should be addressed and submitted through Apple. Well either way there is a bug

Edit: there is also the possibility that the APM is defaulting to a 3rd party volume management when connecting to your AppleTV. In which case the AppleTV should have its own volume setting and the APM would have it's own volume setting. Increase both to increase output. For APP you'd have to set volume before connecting to AppleTV unless you have a shortcut set to deal with volume.

 

[Author]

Stupid idea, but it might work. Try to increase the volume on the AirPods (either on an iPhone, iPad, or Mac) before connecting to the Apple TV? If this works, there is definitely a bug that should be addressed and submitted through Apple. Well either way there is a bug

Edit: there is also the possibility that the APM is defaulting to a 3rd party volume management when connecting to your AppleTV. In which case the AppleTV should have its own volume setting and the APM would have it's own volume setting. Increase both to increase output. For APP you'd have to set volume before connecting to AppleTV unless you have a shortcut set to deal with volume.

Just wanted to share that in my experience, APM volume adjustment is identical to remote control adjustment. Adjusting one adjusts the other. I suppose though it could depend on the type of connection. Mine is just an HDMI to the back of a TV.

I never adjust the TV volume. But maybe that could be affecting things for other users?

 

[tinyman392]

Just wanted to share that in my experience, APM volume adjustment is identical to remote control adjustment. Adjusting one adjusts the other. I suppose though it could depend on the type of connection. Mine is just an HDMI to the back of a TV.

I never adjust the TV volume. But maybe that could be affecting things for other users?

I just realized I was explaining volume adjustments when running wired in my edit. Got that crossed for some reason.

 

[SparkOnShore]

I would dissociate a specific mechanical design from the experience of hearing noises coming from it. I believe that it rather has something to do with the exact implementation, I've used plenty of hinged headband that didn't produce noises when worn (for example my ex P7W) and others that did.

The fact that the headband doesn't stick out to the sides is something that I enjoy quite a lot, but is something that can be achieved with a very boring and traditional Y yoke design as well, it just depends on carefully designing the geometry of the headband, yoke and yoke to cup attachment to that effect. The XM4's headband doesn't stick much further from my head than the APM (the cups do though, because they're thicker, but that is a different problem).



Well, Apple's current joint solution possibly is the most complicated mechanical part ever fitted to a pair of headphones in the history of headphones, so... it's no wonder that this is happening to some pairs (and actually did happen to mine, I had them exchanged) : https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/airpods-max-clicking-hinge.2276500/
I'd expect this problem to disappear once production is sorted out though.
I'm actually really impressed that Apple's engineers and manufacturing capabilities could make it work.
There already exist quite a few headphones with a folding hinge with very discreet cable routing and it's a very boring, proven design that's been in use for decades.

The funny thing is that Apple's excuse to design the headband to cup joint the way they've done so is the following (patent linked above) :

So the theoretical benefits would be that by eliminating the traditional yoke mechanism the spring loaded pivot could reduce the overall bulk of the headphones.
That's very theoretical because :
- as the XM4 shows a traditional yoke design can still be low profile and not stick out too much from the head (counter examples : HD350BT, H95, these make you look like Teletubbies). Other headphones can also achieve a slim earcup profile (Huawei FreeBuds Studio for example. I've just received them today).
- the total weight of the APM is among the highest in its class - and I'm ready to bet that the pivot mechanism alone is significantly heavier than ugly, cheap but still reliable plastic Y shaped yokes,
- the width and height of the cups is among the largest in its class (some of it is just because there's a lot of empty air in them though. When apple introduced the Macbook 12" they said they don't want to ship air, well that's very much what they're doing with the APM ).
And the drawbacks are quite many - mostly related to the actual spring rate being fixed, meaning that it simply won't adapt quite as well to various head shapes as a yoke mechanism that naturally evenly applies pressure around the ear without the need of a spring.

I'm not actually advocating for a boring plastic hinge of the XM4 kind. Just that the headband, extension arms and joint to cup area is where I would like to see Apple propose truly innovative and novel solutions to improve packability and time of deployment, and that I think that the pivot mechanism is a brilliant - and over-complicated - solution still in search of an actual problem to solve.

How do they sound?

 

[SparkOnShore]

With what sort of material and process would you think the headband's canopy is made of ?
In a certain way it reminds me of stockings.

It is a type of polyester fabric, with special treatment in order to be able to retain this impressive elasticity and density. Weaving is also really tight but i think yarn quality is the most unique factor here. We use this type of tight weaving on some blackout curtains (the middle darkening layer out of a 3 layer curtain), but the combination with this softness and elasticity is really difficult to obtain, as well as quite expensive. If i could destroy one headphone i would send this fabric immediately to my production plant specialists to analyze! Most importantly i would want to get yarn detailed analysis. It is an elastic and uniquely strong polyester yarn, but i would like to analyze chemically the treatment and finish they have used on this yarn. I am impressed by this fabric and never expected it, to be honest!

Edit: stockings are much thinner and their yarns are more fragile. This is really dense but at the same time so soft. I wonder where they produce this fabric. I know many really good fabric suppliers in China, India etc, but this supplier here really outdid himself!! Only thinking how many tests they performed with the supplier in order to achieve this type of application really blows my mind off, knowing how unstable the weaving machines can get sometimes.

 

[tinyman392]

It is a type of polyester fabric, with special treatment in order to be able to retain this impressive elasticity and density. Weaving is also really tight but i think yarn quality is the most unique factor here. We use this type of tight weaving on some blackout curtains (the middle darkening layer out of a 3 layer curtain), but the combination with this softness and elasticity is really difficult to obtain, as well as quite expensive. If i could destroy one headphone i would send this fabric immediately to my production plant specialists to analyze! Most importantly i would want to get yarn detailed analysis. It is an elastic and uniquely strong polyester yarn, but i would like to analyze chemically the treatment and finish they have used on this yarn. I am impressed by this fabric and never expected it, to be honest!

Edit: stockings are much thinner and their yarns are more fragile. This is really dense but at the same time so soft. I wonder where they produce this fabric. I know many really good fabric suppliers in China, India etc, but this supplier here really outdid himself!! Only thinking how many tests they performed with the supplier in order to achieve this type of application really blows my mind off, knowing how unstable the weaving machines can get sometimes.

You probably can't get a spare headband, but Apple does sell spare ear pads if you really wanted to destroy a pair. Granted it's a 70 dollar experiment XD

 

[SparkOnShore]

You probably can't get a spare headband, but Apple does sell spare ear pads if you really wanted to destroy a pair. Granted it's a 70 dollar experiment XD

Yes, i indeed intend to buy spare ear pads and send the fabric for testing. But the ear pad fabric is not as special as the headband one. The way that fabric attaches on the silicon tube’s coating, creating a soft but sturdy curve acting like a cushion of air, without the cushion, is a poem. God, how much i would like to create such ideas in my job!! Whoever thought of it is just genius. Who could have thought that we would speak about fabrics in a headphone forum? Obviously Apple...

 

[tinyman392]

Yes, i indeed intend to buy spare ear pads and send the fabric for testing. But the ear pad fabric is not as special as the headband one. The way that fabric attaches on the silicon tube’s coating, creating a soft but sturdy curve acting like a cushion of air, without the cushion, is a poem. God, how much i would like to create such ideas in my job!! Whoever thought of it is just genius. Who could have thought that we would speak about fabrics in a headphone forum? Obviously Apple...

Now that you mention it... Who would come up with something like that? Creating a fabric with that sort of curvature and spring action too, doesn’t seem to be a super trivial task either. We spent a few pages talking about the pivoting mechanism, why not talk about fabrics on a headphone?