[Dead-Vocalist]

Hi everyone,
 
I thought I would update the participants in this thread that have  been kind enough to share their thoughts.
 
Though I do still plan to find a way to listen to many of the headphones that have been suggested (or may still be suggested), it seems that the AKG K702s have been frequently suggested, and are far less expensive then most of the other suggestions.
 
As it turns out they are for sale on Amazon right now so I thought I would buy myself some to listen to while I try to figure out how to get a chance to listen to the other great suggestions, which are either harder to find, or represent a more significant investment.  I am still taking notes on all the great suggestions, and already trying to figure out how I am going to get to listen to them.
 
Thanks so much for your ongoing help.
 
DV

 

[TheMiddleSky]

almost all high end Audio Technica have beautiful and transparant vocal production, but as usual, that "deadly sweet" coloration is good only for enjoy the sound, not analyze.
 
 
anyway, when I read the first post, DT48e comes to my mind....

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

Hi Blackbeard,
 
I admit I had been thinking in terms of headphones, but I had also assumed that for vocal detail, that the best headphones would be better than the best speakers.  Thanks for helping me to reflect on, and reconsider, that assumption.
 
DV
Quote:

I know this is a headphones forum and you're probably looking for headphones, but...
 
<snip> 

 
Well, there's definitely a price to be paid - but luckily with the Infinities, they're available used - for a fraction of what they cost new (and they'd be even more insanely expensive today).  I paid $600 for my Renaissance 90's, which retailed for around $4000 in 1992 and would be well north of $10,000 today if sold new - maybe even more, considering what passes for a $10,000 speaker at Infinity these days (the Prelude 40, which does not impress me at all having heard it myself).
 
The reason the mid-to-high-end Infinities are so good (for vocals, brass, guitars, etc.) is because they use planar drivers for the tweeters (any Infinity worth its salt anyway) and midrange drivers (the higher end ones).  These are planar like the orthodynamic headphones - but a whole lot more R&D/optimization has gone into them than any ortho headphones, thanks to their application as speaker drivers to be integrated into a multiple-driver speaker.  They're optimized for the frequency range they are required to recreate (there's even huge ones for mid-bass drivers in a few of the best models), which gives them a distinct advantage over single driver headphones.  I have to admit though, the value proposition for lower budgets still favors headphones (I paid under $300 for my HD 600's and uDAC compared to around $1100 to get the Renaissance 90's powered and sourced - both systems purchased used).
 
One thing the Infinities have going for them is extremely balanced sound.  When properly amped (i.e. enough power, on the big ones perhaps a solid state monster for the always power-hungry woofers and a middle-powered tube or solid state amp for the rest of the speakers), they're among the most neutral speakers out there.  Underamping can bring serious problems, like extremely weak bass or blown planar drivers from clipping.
 
Weaknesses aside, there are few speakers (or headphones) even today that can match the mids and highs of the Infinity EMIM/EMIT drivers, or the lows of the famed Watkins dual-coil woofers.  They're really something special.
 
Probably the cheapest and easiest to power pair would be the Renaissance 80's.  They're smaller and less expensive than my 90's, but they have the same tweeter and midrange,
 
Perhaps the biggest difference I hear between my headphones and speakers is that it's often easier to hear some details with the HD 600's, but all the details are still there with the Infinities - and they sound far more realistic in tone..

 

[hentai]

 
Quote:

Of the headphones i've owned, the DT48 and the K501 come to mind. If you're lucky, you might still find a used DT48 for a bargain price. K501's are hard to come by though.

 k501 is imho only suitable for female vocal. Male vocal doesn't work well in the akg

 

[wind016]

Dead-vocalist: the K701s lack any "fullness" in voice. in reality, voices do not sound particularly full, but I'm not sure if it's that bright either... I'm sure it will do the job though. My friend just uses cheap ear buds. She sung for my band, won many singing competitions, and ended up singing in my university's graduation ceremony through tremendous amounts of practice. She's applying for auditions with top (very famous) recording companies in the coming year in Hong Kong.
 
I don't know your level of singing, but getting something you'll know you will enjoy listening to too rather than spending all your money to just analyze may be the more practical thing to do anyways. I've never heard of a singer bragging about practicing with Stax or reference speakers. Expensive. Don't spend the money unless you need or want to. You definitely don't need to.

 

[Dead-Vocalist]

 


 
Quote:

Dead-vocalist: the K701s lack any "fullness" in voice. in reality, voices do not sound particularly full, but I'm not sure if it's that bright either... I'm sure it will do the job though. My friend just uses cheap ear buds. She sung for my band, won many singing competitions, and ended up singing in my university's graduation ceremony through tremendous amounts of practice. She's applying for auditions with top (very famous) recording companies in the coming year in Hong Kong.
 
I don't know your level of singing, but getting something you'll know you will enjoy listening to too rather than spending all your money to just analyze may be the more practical thing to do anyways. I've never heard of a singer bragging about practicing with Stax or reference speakers. Expensive. Don't spend the money unless you need or want to. You definitely don't need to.

 
[size=medium]Hi Wind016 and everyone,[/size]
 
[size=medium]I am very grateful for all of your suggestions.  I was hoping, however, to ask for some clarification about what you are suggesting in regard to the K702.  I have purchased it from Amazon (Amazon fulfillment anyway so I get their return policy), for an ok, though not amazing price, but can send it back fairly easily for a few dollars.

[/size]
 
[size=medium]Are you suggesting that I should hold out for something that I would really, really like, or find something that is ok because I don't really need a great headphone for singing? Both could be true and reasonable, I am just wondering if one of them was what you were saying.

[/size]
 
[size=medium]In regard to my singing level and the need for headphones, I would characterize myself as semi-professional.  I have a day job and am not expecting that to change. (though one can always hope!

)[/size]
[size=medium]I am however, a devotee to a scientifically oriented vocal pedagogy called the complete voice technique (CVT), which was developed in Denmark and seems to be very well received in Europe currently.  Much of the focus of this pedagogy is understanding how to make the sorts of sound you would like to make, using different vocal "modes" which can be very subtly different.  In determining these modes, the overtone structure, including formants and harmonics is critically important.  It is particularly well suited to the sort of vocal sounds often scorned by the western "classical" singing tradition, though surprisingly the techniques have a great deal of overlap, and indeed most of the aforementioned modes are part of the classical tradition, at least for the male voice.[/size]
[size=medium]My vocal performances cover a lot of range in terms of frequency, and dynamics though and so do those I am often trying to analyze.  Two vocalists that might serve as similar examples of what I find myself analyzing and emulating are Milienko Matijevic  and Daniel Heiman.  And CVT enthusiasts often debate the modes being utilized in forums and other venues, in a manner not unlike the spirited discussions about headphones that occur on this forum.  I have to admit I enjoy such discussions.

[/size]
 
[size=medium]Anyway, I have a pair of Denon AH-D2000s that I use for tracking which seem to work ok most of the time for this purpose (though not always as isolating as I would like if I am using a condenser mic.)  [/size]
 
[size=medium]Instead of a tracking headphone, what I was after was a pair of headphones that could help me better understand the vocal mode that was being used in a given performance.  Certainly being able to hear the preformance in person would be better, but sadly that is most often not possible.[/size]
 
 
 
[size=medium]My sense is that high frequency response would be a good thing, and a great deal of resolution would be a good thing.  I don't think I want to spend more than a few grand though, and for that, I likely will need to take some time and get a chance to listen to the headphones, and perhaps some of the speakers that have been suggested first. [/size]
 
[size=medium]I guess I figured it was going to take a lot of listening and homework on my part to figure out which headphones were going to be the best choice in this regard and the AKG K702 seemed like they might be better than my Denon at high frequency detail, so they might be useful while I was assessing the rarer and more expensive headphones and/or speakers, especially since I haven't figured out how or where to audition any of them.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Please let me know if you think I should send the AKG K702s back.  It would be no big deal to do so.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Thank so much for all your help!

[/size]
 
[size=medium]DV[/size]
 
[size=medium]PS if anyone has a suggestion for where to audition higher end headphones than what Sam Ash has (which is not saying much) in Northern NJ (greater NYC area), I would be grateful for any suggestions. [/size]

 

[bhanja_trinanjan]

Quote:

My K702 is very good with female vocals ..male as well but high pitched vocals do shine more ,
also i have friends praising the DT880 600 ohm specially for its vocals ...just pair a good tube amp with it  and you are done ! 
 

Why do we always need a tube amp to make a headphone sound good? Why not a linear, powerful, neutral and accurate SS amp?
 
IMO, vocals are pretty good on a wide range of headphones, including my K-702 and T1... but it is MUCH MORE difficult to portray acoustic instruments with total realism.

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Well, I think the best thing to do is to try them and see if they work for you.  I'd love to have a pair of the 702s to compliment my HD 600s (especially for the price), but I have other headphone wants/needs to take care of first.
 
For an idea on what I'm talking speaker-wise, these would be a decent value (maybe offer $2000): http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1294337846&/Infinity-Delta/Gamma-in-Walnut
 
You'd need a hefty amp or two, but for $1000-$1500 there are plenty of choices.  Of course, that's a whole lot more than you'll probably sensibly spend on headphones. But in terms of accuracy, realism, and balance you won't really find anything better for a reasonable price (in speakers).  I'm not really sure how similarly priced headphones (new or used) would compare to them - other than that what my lesser Infinities sound like is in so much of a different league than my HD 600s.  But comparing speakers to headphones is a fruitless endeavor anyway.

 

[wind016]

Quote:

Why do we always need a tube amp to make a headphone sound good? Why not a linear, powerful, neutral and accurate SS amp?  
IMO, vocals are pretty good on a wide range of headphones, including my K-702 and T1... but it is MUCH MORE difficult to portray acoustic instruments with total realism.

Because tubes are known to make vocals sound romantic and easy to listen to. Midrange gets colored by tubes. Solid state amps are more punchy and dynamic. Both good in their own ways. You should know that some headphones were voiced with tube amps in mind too, such as the ATH W1000 and it sounds very natural and organic to me.
 
 
Dead-vocalist: You really seem to know what you're doing, but of course since it's your job haha  I will talk to my friend about CVT. It sounds interesting and will probably be useful for her. As for the K701/2, they seem to match your needs perfectly for now. Clear treble resolution and you will probably benefit from the open design too. It should be better than the Denons no doubt for your needs. I find the vocals on Denons to be laid back anyways.
 

 

[Dead-Vocalist]

Hi everyone,
 
Again thank you for your kind suggestions.
 
As it turns out, I was able to find what I thought was a pretty good deal on DT 880 (600 ohms) for a little over $200 new from an authorized dealer so I got them too!

 
Anyway now I have AKG K702s and DT 880s on their way, so I will be able to see which one seems better to me.  I do have a question though.  Can anyone recommend a headphone amp that would work well for both of these headphones for vocal analysis?  Especially given that one is 600 ohms.
 
Thanks so much.
 
DV

 

[Acix]

 
Quote:

Hi everyone,
 
Again thank you for your kind suggestions.
 
As it turns out, I was able to find what I thought was a pretty good deal on DT 880 (600 ohms) for a little over $200 new from an authorized dealer so I got them too!

 
Anyway now I have AKG K702s and DT 880s on their way, so I will be able to see which one seems better to me.  I do have a question though.  Can anyone recommend a headphone amp that would work well for both of these headphones for vocal analysis?  Especially given that one is 600 ohms.
 
Thanks so much.
 
DV

I think the Headfive amp will be the minimum, used around $200.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Just my two cents...the very best vocals I've ever heard (in order): LCD-2, T1, HD800....all the rest!  (special merit to the Edition 8s for closed headphones).

 

[Dead-Vocalist]

Quote:

Just my two cents...the very best vocals I've ever heard (in order): LCD-2, T1, HD800....all the rest!  (special merit to the Edition 8s for closed headphones).

Hi MacedonianHero,
 
One of the questions that I had based on some other posts about the LCD-2's frequency response curve is how they do in in regard to focal detail in the higher range, not just the mids.  Would you change the order of your three headphones if it was for high vocals?
 
Thanks so much.
 
DV

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

Quote:

Just my two cents...the very best vocals I've ever heard (in order): LCD-2, T1, HD800....all the rest!  (special merit to the Edition 8s for closed headphones).

Hi MacedonianHero,
 
One of the questions that I had based on some other posts about the LCD-2's frequency response curve is how they do in in regard to focal detail in the higher range, not just the mids.  Would you change the order of your three headphones if it was for high vocals?
 
Thanks so much.
 
DV

Simple answer: NOPE. Nothing would change...simply the most realistic and organic vocals (and the rest of the audio spectrum for that matter) I've heard to date. But the T1s and my re-cabled HD800s also present some very impressive vocals too.

 

[Maxvla]

Top 3 vocals I've heard:

1. Hifiman HE-6
2. Stax O2 MKII
3. Sennheiser HE-60